Shotguns?

[Lou Girardin]

e.g. the Paul Stowers case in Newmarket some years back...

Stowers was the guy in Welly holding a chrome bar when the cops broke down his door, the cops thought it was a gun. He's dead.

[tracyprier]

I agree. Monthly would be ideal but it won't happen because the department squirms at having to pay for the ammo we use in training days now. Personally I'd be happy to purchase my own box of ammo once a month and head out to the range for a little "group therapy". I believe the AOS training days occur monthly.

Gee, I'd like to have thought the AOS were on the ranges weekly, hell it's their main reason for being.

I know that when I used to shoot IPSC if I went more than a couple of weeks between training/matches my times and accuracy started to suffer.

Skill with a firearm is one of those VERY perishable skills.

[Lou Girardin]

.

BOLLOX!!! I have fired literally thousands of .45 rounds without ANY problems. The Smith & Wesson .45s are crap and misfeed/fire though. Your firearm needs to see a good gunsmith!
The stopping power of the .45 is unquestionable. This is where the 9mm is letting things down. The old maxim that "it's weight - NOT velocity" still holds true with pistol ammo. A bigger projectile travelling slower will do the business.
This is why you have to use a hollowpoint round to get a 9mm to do anything.

I have witnessed a shooter firing 9mm at a falling steel plate and it not even hinting at falling over. Another shooter steps up with a .45 and bang, down she went!



Exactly!!

The Police will not/can not use accurized handguns. They use standard issue.
Plus, if they don't have the resources to attend property crime, how the hell are they going to attend regular training?
Which brings us back to shotguns - easy to learn to use, extremely intimidating and what they hit usually goes

[spudchucka]

Gee, I'd like to have thought the AOS were on the ranges weekly, hell it's their main reason for being.

They aren't a permanent (full time) squad. They are ordinary cops that work in a variety of areas within the police. They get paged when required to attend an AOS job.

[spudchucka]

Which brings us back to shotguns - easy to learn to use, extremely intimidating and what they hit usually goes

Did you look at that box of truth web site?

Heres the link to the shotgun tests.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

Apparently you still need some skill to use a shotgun effectively.

The tests done on level IIIA body armour are also very interesting.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot16.htm

I'll maintain my faith in the .223.

Granted the test on that web site don't appear to be overly scientific but I think the images tell a pretty accurate story.

[jrandom]

the only thing the projectile is increasing in is elevation when it leaves the barrel ( remember a projectile travels in an arc)

[giggle]

Are you really trying to assert that a bullet shot out of a gun will rise after leaving the barrel in any case other than when the gun is, you know, pointing up?

[ManDownUnder]

[giggle]

Are you really trying to assert that a bullet shot out of a gun will rise after leaving the barrel in any case other than when the gun is, you know, pointing up?

awww fuckit - now I'm laughing WITH fish instead of AT fish...

yeah - err. me thinks that little piece of lead starts to fall as soon as it can which tends to be the millisecond it leaves the comfortable surrounds of the barrel.

[Sniper]

[giggle]

Are you really trying to assert that a bullet shot out of a gun will rise after leaving the barrel in any case other than when the gun is, you know, pointing up?

Lol, that is a very good theory, but totally false. I believed it for a few years until it was beaten out of me.

[tracyprier]

They aren't a permanent (full time) squad. They are ordinary cops that work in a variety of areas within the police. They get paged when required to attend an AOS job.

Oh right. But we do have full time AOS unit's though right??

[Colapop]

The Police will not/can not use accurized handguns. They use standard issue.
Plus, if they don't have the resources to attend property crime, how the hell are they going to attend regular training?
Which brings us back to shotguns - easy to learn to use, extremely intimidating and what they hit usually goes

The use of shotguns still begs the question of 'friendly fire' - what would be an acceptable number of casualties in a situation as happened if a shotgun were used? And is a drug crazed (assumed) offender going to stop?

[Indoo]

Stowers was the guy in Welly holding a chrome bar when the cops broke down his door, the cops thought it was a gun. He's dead.

I thought he was they guy on Kyhber pass who pointed a shotgun at the cops after they pulled him over?

[T.W.R]

[giggle]

Are you really trying to assert that a bullet shot out of a gun will rise after leaving the barrel in any case other than when the gun is, you know, pointing up?

mmm do you really think a bullet travels in straight line !!!! HAHA fool you need to learn a bit about ballistics!

go sight a rifle in for a 120m zero then fire it at target at 50m, the bullet will hit high possibly upto a minute of angle, then fire the same rifle at a target at say 180m, then the bullet will hit low possibly upto a minute of angle below !

[jrandom]

The use of shotguns still begs the question of 'friendly fire' - what would be an acceptable number of casualties in a situation as happened if a shotgun were used?

Check out the penetration tests Spud linked to. 3-inch spread at 12 feet from 00 buck. That's not exactly knocking-down-crowds-in-wide-swathes territory.

[Sniper]

Oh right. But we do have full time AOS unit's though right??

No we don't. Just guys with specialist training

[Sniper]

mmm do you really think a bullet travels in straight line !!!! HAHA fool you need to learn a bit about ballistics!

It depends, you need to be more specific! You are right that if you sight a rifle for 120m, and you fire it at 50m the shot is higher. The scope is calibrated for bullet drop-off not rising.