Lane splitting/filtering: the legal and commonsense answers

[swbarnett]

For those clipping mirrors every now and then might want to consider that they will up for a grand or two if they take out a euro car with auto diming, heated with side camera mirror. From recall bike insurance execess are quite high let alone a scooter rider with 3rd party only. if they dont mind clipping then no doubt they don't mind paying if it results in damage.

How long is it going to take some of you to undersand that we are NOT talking about taking out a mirror. We're talking about CLIPPING a mirror i.e. touching mirror to mirror with no damage resulting.

[Katman]

How long is it going to take some of you to undersand that we are NOT talking about taking out a mirror. We're talking about CLIPPING a mirror i.e. touching mirror to mirror with no damage resulting.

You're talking about clipping a mirror with no damage resulting.

The reality is though that it all depends on how hard the mirror is 'clipped'.

[Madness]

How long is it going to take some of you to undersand that we are NOT talking about taking out a mirror. We're talking about CLIPPING a mirror i.e. touching mirror to mirror with no damage resulting.

How long is it going to take some of you to understand that despite there being no damage resulting in your opinion, there is significant damage being done each & every time to the perception of motorcyclists held by other law obiding motorists everywhere?

I ride a motorcycle in the weekends. Weekdays I find myself stuck in a large (new) 4-wheeled vehicle. I move over to make more for bikes splitting but at the same time if I see a splitting bike clip a mirror it makes my blood boil to the extent that I feel the need to smash the biker in the face for being an ignorant cunt. I wonder how the driver of the vehicle who just had their mirror clipped might feel, in light of the fact that they themselves probably have never ridden a bike at all.

It's ignorance in its lowest form.

You keep reassuring yourself and others that there is no real damage being done & you'll make yourself feel so much better about lane splitting badly next time you collide with another vehicle who is rightfully occupying that lane at the time. That's what your position is all about really, innit?

[swbarnett]

You're talking about clipping a mirror with no damage resulting.

The reality is though that it all depends on how hard the mirror is 'clipped'.

OK, I'm talking about "clipping". You're talking about hitting or colliding. The subtlety of the english language does not lend itself to effective communication with words alone.

[Katman]

As Madness rightly points out, the damage done is not necessarily restricted to the mirror.

[swbarnett]

I see a splitting bike clip a mirror it makes my blood boil to the extent that I feel the need to smash the biker in the face for being an ignorant cunt.

You need some anger management. Would you smash the pedestrian in the face for being an ignorant cunt if they bumped in to you in a crowd?

[Madness]

OK, I'm talking about "clipping". You're talking about hitting or colliding. The subtlety of the english language does not lend itself to effective communication with words alone.

You'd make a really bad defence lawyer for a sexual assault charge. I can just see it now; "There was no penile penetration, your honour. I submit my client should be allowed to walk free as no real damage has been done".

[bluninja]

This all a bit like the 'smacking' law isn't it. You can smack a child as long as you don't leave any mark or redness on the skin...so it's ok to clip wing mirrors as long as you don't damage them.

Just like with smacking, and with regards to clipping wing mirrors...people ask why should you ever need to?....why put yourself in a position where it can happen?

We all know it doesn't need to happen, but some people do it by accident, and some people don't seem to understand what the fuss is about.

Whoops this is the lane splitting thread and not the wing mirror clipping thread...though it's hard to tell at times

[Madness]

You need some anger management. Would you smash the pedestrian in the face for being an ignorant cunt if they bumped in to you in a crowd?

Of course not for reasons I have explained already. I've actually done an anger management course and have no problem with containing my emotions IRL when confronted with ignorant fuckwits. It's on KB where I struggle with those circumstances.

[Madness]

This all a bit like the 'smacking' law isn't it. You can smack a child as long as you don't leave any mark or redness on the skin...so it's ok to clip wing mirrors as long as you don't damage them.

I doubt that anyone would agree that it's o.k to walk up to a child who is minding their own business and has caused no offence and give them a smack though.

Just like with smacking, and with regards to clipping wing mirrors...people ask why should you ever need to?....why put yourself in a position where it can happen?

I'm saying feel free to put yourself into that position providing you're sure you have the skills, mental capacity and morals to ensure you don't clip any mirrors. Physical damage to another motorists wing mirror or lack thereof is not the issue, it's about respect. Why is this concept sooooooooo hard to grasp for some?

[swbarnett]

Of course not for reasons I have explained already. I've actually done an anger management course and have no problem with containing my emotions IRL when confronted with ignorant fuckwits. It's on KB where I struggle with those circumstances.

Glad to hear it. As I've said before it's very hard to get to know someone just from what it posted.

You'd make a really bad defence lawyer for a sexual assault charge. I can just see it now; "There was no penile penetration, your honour. I submit my client should be allowed to walk free as no real damage has been done".

The two situations are hardly the same. This issue is one of intent.

I doubt that anyone would agree that it's o.k to walk up to a child who is minding their own business and has caused no offence and give them a smack though.

Agreed. But you're talking about a deliberate act. It's a tottally different matter, however, if someone was walking near a child and bumped into said child after tripping on a wonky paving stone.

Physical damage to another motorists wing mirror or lack thereof is not the issue, it's about respect. Why is this concept sooooooooo hard to grasp for some?

This is where we differ. I agree that, if a wing mirror is clipped then the rider obviously cocked up and probably lacks the skill for eror free lane-splitting. However, the real issue is one of intent.

[Madness]

Intent
Intent
Intent
Intent
Intent
Intent
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Intent

It is about intent and respect of others. Do you sometimes find your self splitting between two lanes already occupied by other vehicles by accident? No, you don't do you. You split lanes with intent and it's the lack of respect of others that finds you in situations where you may or indeed have collided with other vehicles.

You as the rider of the bike have the option of not going into a gap or to go in with the attitude of "here's hoping for the best, won't matter anyways so long as I don't smash the fuckers off completely".

Do you get it yet?



Why do you have to keep bringing pedestrians bumping into each other into this discussion? Pedestrians are not governed by lanes, controls, traffic regulations, te road code or te land tansport act. Try to keep it on topic, eh?

[swbarnett]

Do you sometimes find your self splitting between two lanes already occupied by other vehicles by accident? No, you don't do you.

Well, actually, I have. But I do understand what you're saying. Yes, the act of lane splitting is done with intent. The intent of travelling through a gap without touching another vehicle.

You split lanes with intent and it's the lack of respect of others that finds you in situations where you may or indeed have collided with other vehicles.

Right, I think we're getting down to the crux of the matter. Yes, I agree that it is the responsibility of the rider to judge the gap correctly in advance. However, there are situations for novice lane splitters where "I thought the gap was big enough". Mirror clipped, no damage, lesson learnt and if possible apology given. There is no lack of respect here because, as much as the novice was able, all due care and attention was given. Or are you saying we should never lane split because we're not all born with the ability to judge gaps perfectly?

You as the rider of the bike have the option of not going into a gap or to go in with the attitude of "here's hoping for the best, won't matter anyways so long as I don't smash the fuckers off completely".

I have never taken a gap without believing that the gap was big enough. Once or twice in the early days I misjudged the gap and clipped a mirror. I learnt from the experience and haven't clipped a mirror in decades.

Why do you have to keep bringing pedestrians bumping into each other into this discussion? Pedestrians are not governed by lanes, controls, traffic regulations, te road code or te land tansport act. Try to keep it on topic, eh?

I bring pedestrians in to the discussion because it is a similar situation. There is no intent to bump each other and no lack of respect when it does happens. Yes, traffic is governed by lanes but we are allowed to share the lane.

[Katman]

However, there are situations for novice lane splitters where "I thought the gap was big enough". Mirror clipped, no damage, lesson learnt and if possible apology given. There is no lack of respect here because, as much as the novice was able, all due care and attention was given.

I think the intent of this thread is to ensure that the correct lesson is learnt.

If it generally were, we would expect to see very little instances of clipping mirrors.

[Madness]

Well, actually, I have.

Perhaps you should pay more attention to the third quote in your own signature line then?

Yes, the act of lane splitting is done with intent.

Thank fuck you finally got there.

Right, I think we're getting down to the crux of the matter. Yes, I agree that it is the responsibility of the rider to judge the gap correctly in advance. However, there are situations for novice lane splitters where "I thought the gap was big enough". Mirror clipped, no damage, lesson learnt and if possible apology given. There is no lack of respect here because, as much as the novice was able, all due care and attention was given. Or are you saying we should never lane split because we're not all born with the ability to judge gaps perfectly?

I have not and never will say that motorcyclists shouldn't lane split whilst it remains technically legal. The situation you outline where the rider thought the gap was big enough but wasn't is directly tied to respect. If the rider had respect for others they would be giving a wider tolerance when gauging the width of the gap, not just basing it on the width of their bike plus 5mm either way. To suggest that a novice should be given slack due to their lack of skills and experience also doesn't stack up in my opinion for two reasons; The clogged Auckland motorways at peak times is no place to learn the skills necessary to split safely and the collision with other vehicles is not an acceptable price to be paid for learning such skills. Once again, the actual damage inflicted to a wing mirror, or lack thereof has sweet fuck all to do with it. A collision is a collision is a collision.

How does the driver of a car who has its mirror clipped by a splitting biker supposed know how experienced the rider is? They don't, therefore they'll likely put the collision down to ignorance and a lack of respect on the part of the motorcyclist.

I have never taken a gap without believing that the gap was big enough. Once or twice in the early days I misjudged the gap and clipped a mirror. I learnt from the experience and haven't clipped a mirror in decades.

So your own mirror-clipping experiences came from a lack of mental ability rather than a lack of ability to maintain a straight line is what you're saying. Great, see my first comment in this post.

I bring pedestrians in to the discussion because it is a similar situation. There is no intent to bump each other and no lack of respect when it does happens.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I believe the two situations have nothing in common at all.

Yes, traffic is governed by lanes but we are allowed to share the lane.

Providing you don't collide with the other vehicle. Simple as fuck really when you get past your attempts at self-justification, innit?