Suspension settings.. has anyone tried....

**bugjuice** · 22nd December 2005, 11:46

yeah, I think that's what I'll end up doing.. I'll set the sag, then everything half way-ish (still thinking about dropping the forks), and take note of the settings everyone seems to have, and then do a stretch like Old North Road. Do a run with them half way, then one on full, then may be one on soft, and then see where things lie. And compare them to what other people have set.

My bike has done nearly 22,000ks now too, so it'll be nicely broke in to start playing with things like this

**pritch** · 22nd December 2005, 12:14

The Ohlins website has pdf files available for download including an "Owners Manual". The detailed info relates specifically to Ohlins, of course, but the step by step setup proceedure and sequence is spelled out and probably applies equally to any brand of shock.

**bugjuice** · 22nd December 2005, 12:33

cheers pritch..

just checked up their website and found this, which I'll have a read thru: http://ohlins.com/mc_ultimate_tuning.shtml
and a PDF (on another page) of their tuning guide. http://ohlins.com/pdf/07255-01.pdf

**Brian d marge** · 22nd December 2005, 13:15

Originally Posted by R1madness

Forget all that crap. .

Why????

Why do you think teams fit telemetry to bikes ??? so they can fiddle with a few adjusters ( that will only change the fork action a few percent ????)

I for one cant afford telemetry, and there NO way I can tell the difference between settings on a poorly set up bike ( for the record when I fitted my front end it had been valved for a proffesional, who weighed 70 to 80 kg...sags ok but rebound shim stack ...way off... would kick up on the jump face ) So NO amount of clicker settings would cure it ,,I could notice the difference between 8 or more clicks either way ...just ,,the rest of the time I was hanging on for dear life with the front popping out of the ruts on corners , which tended to high side ,,,,

So I had a email session with Jeremy wilkey , MX Tech ,,,and thats what was suggested to me ..and it worked you can see what is happening to the forks , how the bike wasnt getting traction ....

Still whole lot easier to twist a few clickers and change the oil ...

Stephen

**cowpoos** · 22nd December 2005, 13:24

Originally Posted by Lou Girardin

I think Ohlins is refering to the swing arm angle in relation to the frame of the bike, not to ground level.
If you increase the angle by raising ride height, which is lengthening the shocks overall length, torque reaction on the swingarm is increased due to the increased angle and this effectively stiffens the rear susp under acceleration.
At least that's how it sounded to me.

due to the fact that the bike in question runs a linkage...droping the forks through the yokes will soften the rear end....lifting the rear will infact get the bike back to dam near [+/- .05 degree] the way the digresive linkage should actituate [speeling]...the reason why most people sugest droping the forks through the yokes is because its the easyest and cheapest...buying some shims and having them fitted is still alot cheaper than replacing the linkage arm to an adjustable one...

**Lou Girardin** · 22nd December 2005, 14:47

Originally Posted by cowpoos

due to the fact that the bike in question runs a linkage...droping the forks through the yokes will soften the rear end....lifting the rear will infact get the bike back to dam near [+/- .05 degree] the way the digresive linkage should actituate [speeling]...the reason why most people sugest droping the forks through the yokes is because its the easyest and cheapest...buying some shims and having them fitted is still alot cheaper than replacing the linkage arm to an adjustable one...

OK we'll agree to disagree. But I thought the RC211V is the only bike with digressive rear linkage systems.

**cowpoos** · 22nd December 2005, 20:52

Originally Posted by Lou Girardin

OK we'll agree to disagree. But I thought the RC211V is the only bike with digressive rear linkage systems.

looks like we will....my old [98] TL's ran a digresive linkage...infact very similar to a F1 system....separate damping and spring...most new bikes have digresive systems by using linkages...they would work better if the spring was seperated...but rooms at a premium...

**Lou Girardin** · 23rd December 2005, 09:14

By digressive, do you mean a linkage that reduces the spring rate throughout it's travel? As distinct from nearly every other linkage system that is progressive or linear. That is, the rate increases or remains the same.

**cowpoos** · 23rd December 2005, 09:49

Originally Posted by Lou Girardin

By digressive, do you mean a linkage that reduces the spring rate throughout it's travel? As distinct from nearly every other linkage system that is progressive or linear. That is, the rate increases or remains the same.

yes...road bikes should be linear or digresive....digresive being what is really desired....have a look at the angles on the linkages on one of the new sports bikes in your shop....imagine how the leverage creates differing forces through the full range of travel...

I think we need to meet up some time and have this yarn over a beer ot two...its a hard subject to talk about with just words...
Its also one of those subjects that there's lots of wives tails talked about...when the simple matter is...its actually quite basic physics to grasp...but bloody trick in the really world because of many factors...

**R1madness** · 23rd December 2005, 12:36

Originally Posted by Brian d'marge

Why????

Why do you think teams fit telemetry to bikes ??? so they can fiddle with a few adjusters ( that will only change the fork action a few percent ????)

I for one cant afford telemetry, and there NO way I can tell the difference between settings on a poorly set up bike ( for the record when I fitted my front end it had been valved for a proffesional, who weighed 70 to 80 kg...sags ok but rebound shim stack ...way off... would kick up on the jump face ) So NO amount of clicker settings would cure it ,,I could notice the difference between 8 or more clicks either way ...just ,,the rest of the time I was hanging on for dear life with the front popping out of the ruts on corners , which tended to high side ,,,,

So I had a email session with Jeremy wilkey , MX Tech ,,,and thats what was suggested to me ..and it worked you can see what is happening to the forks , how the bike wasnt getting traction ....

Still whole lot easier to twist a few clickers and change the oil ...

Stephen

Its just the way i see things. The bikes these days are fantastic, even the standard suspension is great. After all Stroudy took out the 600 class last year on a bike that ran the std rear shock for the first 3 rounds. Yep sure a revalve and spring rate match in the front would make for a noticable improvement but most people will not do it because of the cost. Yes i agree it is cheap speed but most people just dont care. They would rather buy a pipe. That way you can see the $$$ spent.
Telemetry, its great. Pity its banned here in NZ racing.
For what its worth all the $ in the world will not help if you are on crap/cold tyres.
If you understand suspension and how it works and what makes it do what, you can get a lot out of it.
I dont disagree with ya Brian just think most people want the best out of the std suspension without spending the cash. mugs.

**TwoSeven** · 23rd December 2005, 13:39

Originally Posted by cowpoos

looks like we will....my old [98] TL's ran a digresive linkage...infact very similar to a F1 system....separate damping and spring...most new bikes have digresive systems by using linkages...they would work better if the spring was seperated...but rooms at a premium...

I'm having a bit of trouble understanding the terminology you guys are using.

As far as I know there is no such thing as a digressive linkage. I think what is meant is a digressive shock (or digressive damping) which uses a progressive shim stack to provide a high initial stiffness [the opposite is called a 'rising rate' shock which starts with a low initial stiffness]. The linkage is simply the bar that joins the bottom of the shock to the chassis the swingarm and chassis. The bit that connects to the chassis is called the link rod. Its purpose it to translate the virtical distance of wheel travel to a force applied to the end of the shock - usually using a reduction ratio.

A [pro-link] linkage uses tangenital forces (from what I can see) and is normally progressive or linear (very rare these days) - Since the other word for tangential is digressive perhaps the latter word was substituted by mistake.

The only other thing I can think of is that the linkage rod has been very badley designed and has an angle making a high resistance before it pivots enough to travel freely - I cant see that happening on the Honda unit pro-link. The high initial resistance would make it 'digressive' in behaviour [to use the damping term].

The RC211V uses a bog standard unit pro-link system, similar to the ones that are fitted to the cibby 600 and 1k (but obviously a higher spec). It's upper mount is on the swingarm rather than on the frame as on the old pro-link system. If they [honda] have reshimmed it to be digressive, no-one would know except the chap that builds the shock. But the design change is simply to make the shock go straight up and down, rather than also back and forth as well and to remove forces being applied to the chassis.

**Brian d marge** · 23rd December 2005, 14:05

Originally Posted by R1madness

Its just the way i see things.
I dont disagree with ya Brian just think most people want the best out of the std suspension without spending the cash. mugs.

Thats cool, The standard suspension is a lot better than a few years ago, but the factory is a bit myopic they ( honda ) really dont know whats going on in the outside world ,,,( american honda I rekon is saving their arse!) look at this years tokyo motor show ,,,Retro ,,brand new copys of 20 year old shit !

Anyway I digress ,,,If you are 70 kg or there abouts the standard suspension is fine ..you probably wont even notice anything at road speeds ,,

When I started Mx I just got on the bike and opened the throttle ...after going over the handlebars a few times ,,,and taking the knobs of the top of the front tyre ...I sat down ( nearly a year ago now ) and had a good long think /play.
What I wanted was to use the stock suspension to get the best bang for bucks ,,( ie not spend anything ) ,,,but I eventually admitted defeat and bought the correct spring rate for the bike ,,,,this then required a change in the shim stacks ,,, oh well its all education ,,,

at the mo ,,,The bike is in a million bits , I am going stiffer again in the front so I can leave the compression shim stack relatively soft , so that the spring will take the hits through the whoops ...( I get nailed through those things ,,,)

Stephen

**Lou Girardin** · 23rd December 2005, 14:17

Originally Posted by TwoSeven

The RC211V uses a bog standard unit pro-link system, similar to the ones that are fitted to the cibby 600 and 1k (but obviously a higher spec). It's upper mount is on the swingarm rather than on the frame as on the old pro-link system. If they [honda] have reshimmed it to be digressive, no-one would know except the chap that builds the shock. But the design change is simply to make the shock go straight up and down, rather than also back and forth as well and to remove forces being applied to the chassis.

You may well be right. I was thinking back to an article I read that said the Honda has a digressive linkage. It does seem strange that they want a falling spring rate as the spring compresses though. I understand the advantage of digressive damping. All going well I'll have set of Traxxion valves on the Bandito soon.

**TwoSeven** · 23rd December 2005, 21:06

Maybe, it is digressive in the damping. I've always wanted to get hold of data logger readouts off of race bikes to see whats going on. It could be that under hard braking or acceleration there is a requirement to have a high initial resistance, then have it slide into a different setting after.

What to dirt bikes normally have on them, they would be an ideal candidate wouldnt they ?

**cowpoos** · 23rd December 2005, 21:23

Originally Posted by TwoSeven

Maybe, it is digressive in the damping. I've always wanted to get hold of data logger readouts off of race bikes to see whats going on. It could be that under hard braking or acceleration there is a requirement to have a high initial resistance, then have it slide into a different setting after.

What to dirt bikes normally have on them, they would be an ideal candidate wouldnt they ?

nope dirt bike's use a progresive set up...which is as easy as pie for a tuner to set up...