Democracy For Palestinians

[Marmoot]

I remember reading an article around the time Afganistan was voting for its new president. The chief of a tribe in one of the regions got his advisors together to decide what they were going to do. He subsequently went to Kabul and proudly told one of the candidates that his tribe had decided to participate in the democratic process, that he had decided his tribe was going to vote for the particular candidate and asked which government ministry he would given in return.

Sorry, but this happens in New Zealand as well, no?

[SARGE]

Sorry, but this happens in New Zealand as well, no?

no way??!!
Uncle Helen would never pay for votes..

[SixPackBack]

"The US will apologize to the world for our "interference" in their affairs, past & present. You know, Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Tojo, Noriega, Milosevic, Hussein, and the rest of those "good ole boys", we will never "interfere" again."

http://www.gixxer.com/ubbthreads/sho...ue#Post2001599

Slightly off topic but oh so true....and funny as hell [Robin Williams]

[terbang]

bollocks
you mean the same way she lasted 5 minutes in 1948 when the bloody brits [ i'm one, so i can say it] departed, carefully handing most armament etc. to the arabs?
sorry - don't mean to be offensive, but it's a crock .......
you may disagree with the 1948 descision that brought israel into being but you surely can't believe that she only survived thus far because of luck and largess?

No offense taken though I usually reserve "bollocks & Crock" for arguements rather than a debate..

So how did Israel survive then?

[terbang]

Introducing democracy in M.E. with a fire-and-forget method is just another way of changing the regime with a new regime.

True, and in the case of Iraq, an American one..!

[SARGE]

True, and in the case of Iraq, an American one..!

im sure the Kurds will really miss the gassings and torture. and im almost positive that they may even get a meal once in awhile, now that Hussein isnt using gov't coffers to build golden palaces ( how many palaces did he have in Bagdahd alone?)


god i'll miss those palaces...

[TwoSeven]

Ok, I know not many people know how diplomacy works. But lets take a look at whats happening.

Hamas a political/military organisation gets elected. The US has to toe the party line and say - we dont give aid to terrorists unless they disarm. Hamas have to toe the party line - we wont disarm ourselves as we require at least some defense.

So. The US dontates its Aid to the UN which gives it to the palistinians (did you know the US gave them us$400m last year) - this gets round the US problem and ensures that the palistinians dont starve. Meanwhile they work with Hamas in how to solve their problem with out them losing face. Its likely to be that the military wing gets spun off into its own armed force (regular army). But that also requires the PLO and Fatah doing the same with theirs. I wouldnt be surprised if you see some compramises in the next few weeks.

In the mean time, they have to keep up a show of being beligerent with each other or they lose face with their home crowed.

When you listen to statements made by diplomats it more important to listen to what is not said, than what is said

[mstriumph]

No offense taken though I usually reserve "bollocks & Crock" for arguements rather than a debate..

So how did Israel survive then?

thanks ... i did get a bit carried away

suspect she survived same way as anything survives ... prolly same way as you survive in traffic mebbe?

...... by being determined to survive, keeping your skills/equipment in good order and being just a bit quicker, smarter, more observant and better-disciplined than the forces ranged against you?

[Winston001]

funny you should mention that .. i was actually part of the UNMNF (United Nations Multi-National Force) that went in to clean up that clusterfuck. because of that, i lost 241 of my brothers.

Small world. I remember the Phalangist attacks because I was bumming around in Egypt at the time. It didn't mean a lot because the facts only came out years later. There was so much going on in Lebanon in the 1980s.

Thanks for the Marines link - interesting stuff. Captain Johnson taking on 3 Israeli tanks is a story as good as that Chinese student in Tianamin Square.

[terbang]

im sure the Kurds will really miss the gassings and torture. and im almost positive that they may even get a meal once in awhile, now that Hussein isnt using gov't coffers to build golden palaces ( how many palaces did he have in Bagdahd alone?)


god i'll miss those palaces...

Sarge as a man of great ME knowledge maybe you can answer me this simple question. Why are american forces in Iraq? Must have done something pretty bad as its costing the yanks a bomb.. Really is it the WMD?. Pedling Democracy (why only Iraq when there are others)? Are/were they a threat to USA? Is Saddam worse than Mugabe? In cahoots with Bin Laden? Perhaps Mugabe has no Oil?
What..? seems kinda expensive and mad to me.

[SPman]

True dat.

Democracy can only be sustained in a society with relatively-high civilization (read: education level), mutual respect for human lives, law and order, and welfare. Rules out most countries

Without high education, the so-called democracy scheme becomes a field for everyday propaganda war. you mean - like most countries - including the USA

Without mutual respect for human lives, the so-called democracy scheme will be rich with political assassinations and clashes between groups of people. ...hmmmm...like most countries..

Without law and order, the so-called democracy scheme becomes a matter of the one with loudest voice and biggest muscle wins. like even more countries.....including the USA

Without welfare, the so-called democracy scheme becomes simple money-politics. - yep - like most countries.......

Introducing democracy in M.E. with a fire-and-forget method is just another way of changing the regime with a new regime.
Hey - like most countries out there.....

............................Israel is and remians where it is because of the US and EU intervention..If that suport was fully withdrawn (including the nukes) Israel would probably last about 5 minutes..! Hence the support..

Israel remains where it is cos they are a tough, ruthless bunch of mofo's, who know if they give an inch, they'll lose every mile they have. Not every israeli agrees with this, but, its currently a fact of life!
Cynical!

MOI????

[Winston001]

So how did Israel survive then?

Bloody good question and one I've wondered about too. From research there are a number of reasons.

Firstly the Arab nations believed that their combined might would bulldoze "the Jews into the Sea".

Secondly the Jewish people do not have much of a history of resistance. They've been pushed around for centuries. Just consider how the Nazis were able to imprison and kill millions. The Arabs had a perfectly reasonable expectation this would happen again.

Thirdly the Arab armies were comprised of poorly trained conscripts. They simply expected to see people running away from them.

Fourthly the Israelis had nowwhere to go. Backs to the wall so it was fight or perish particularly now that they had a home.

So the ferocity of the battles was far worse than the Arab armies ever expected and they faltered. Over time this turned to a rout and the Israelis overran the Palestinian lands. Which is where we are today.

[SuperDave]

What do you mean itching to?
They already do, they'll destroy a house with the family in it because a sniper may have fired from it.

And the suicide bombers deliberately target civilians, everytime.

[SARGE]

Small world. I remember the Phalangist attacks because I was bumming around in Egypt at the time. It didn't mean a lot because the facts only came out years later. There was so much going on in Lebanon in the 1980s.

Thanks for the Marines link - interesting stuff. Captain Johnson taking on 3 Israeli tanks is a story as good as that Chinese student in Tianamin Square.

Captain Johnson is an interesting man. i served with him several times and he really plays the incident down. very soft spoken man but he has the 'GAZE' that lets you know he is NOT the man to cross on his best day. lotta hero's came out of that deployment, but you will never hear the stories of most of them.

[SARGE]

Sarge as a man of great ME knowledge maybe you can answer me this simple question. Why are american forces in Iraq? Must have done something pretty bad as its costing the yanks a bomb.. Really is it the WMD?. Pedling Democracy (why only Iraq when there are others)? Are/were they a threat to USA? Is Saddam worse than Mugabe? In cahoots with Bin Laden? Perhaps Mugabe has no Oil?
What..? seems kinda expensive and mad to me.

terbang.. you really have to understand Geo-politics to know that the Iraq war really had nothing to do with Oil, WMD or unfinished business. read the book America's Secret War and it may give you some insight as to just how far back the War On Terror actually started.


yes.. America armed the Mujadeen in Afganistan in order to defeat the Soviets. ( yes we played puppetmaster on that one.. better than a direct US/ USSR confrontation that would have melted the earths crust..) here you have a ragtag band of fighters taking a superpower to its knees .. case #1.. case #2 the US arming Iraq to fight against the Soviet backed Iranians ( we didnt really care who won that one to be honest as long as they were busy with each other...)


blah blah blah the black-ops keep rolling on and on.. suffice it to say that the Middle east is a chessboard that was and is strategiclly important ( not due to oil.. read the book)




the US stuffed a few things up, but this whole political game is alot like Tetris. one move directly influences the next 5. read the book... it sums the whole thing up better than i can.. might pay to google the term CALIPHATE also

And the suicide bombers deliberately target civilians, everytime.

there was a case about a year ago in iraq where a squad of Marines was handing out lollies to a group of 40 or so children.. truckbomb rolls into the center of the group and detonates, killing 5 Marines, 40 kids and a few civillians. shame to lose all those kids to get at a fw low-ranking Jarheads



you can judge a society by how it treats its women, children and criminals. ( dont start on me about the Abu Garib prison unless you want a verbal smackdown..those guards were pussies in my opinion..give me 30 days in charge and i'd have Bin Laden wrapped up and delivered like a funky, hairy pizza)


here is a snippet of the book....