Democracy For Palestinians

[CBRAero]

The media is left wing. Anyone who thinks that the media is right wing is infact hard left themselves.

As far as Israel goes, while it may not have been a good idea to have it formed, the Jews have just as much right to that land if not more so than the Arabs. It is their ancient homeland. The word 'Jerusalem' is mentioned hundreds of times in the Torah and not once in the Koran...getting the picture? While Jerusalem is the number one Holy site for Jews, the Dome of the Rock is something like #3 on the list for Islam with Mecca/Medina taking the prime spots. Its not so much that the Arabs desperately want the land that is Israel back, more its they want the filthy Jews gone. Their current stance is a great vehicle to achieve that goal as it helps to bear international pressure. Hamas are a little more honest in their stated goals, and to be sure there can be no peace, there never was a chance, not while Islam prevails in its current form at any rate. If their is one inherent flaw in democracy, its that people are to fucking stupid to know how to vote and what is in their best interests.

[TwoSeven]

As far as I am aware the UN didnt create Israel, it recognised it as a nation - israel was already created when that happened.

Also from memory, the city was called Salem which is an akadian name. When the jews conqured the place it was given the hebrew name yrwslm (remember akkadian, aramaic and old arabic have no vowels). In modern arabic and its forerunner syraic it is ursalim (same pronounciation). Roughly speaking it probably means city/place of peace or something like that.

I think that the cananites (palastinians) jews and arabs etc are all semetic races (similar tribes) who come from roughly the same area - they all have approximately the same right to live there.

From what I am aware of the modern dispute has little to do with the old dispute. It started in 1945 with the arab/israeli war which created the state of israel which later resulted in the 1967 war.

The palistinians have been throwing stones ever since - when they finally stop I suspect they will get their land back. I think Hamas have finally realised this (hopefully).

[Scouse]

Israel is a thriving democracy with a strong economy (no oil) and stands in stark contrast to every Arab nation surrounding it. It was largely desert 100 years ago.

Only because the Americans prop them up with billions in aid both financial and military (no disresect Sarge cause I have always had a great time whenever I have visited the States and have always been treated exceptionaly well and Im not anti American but Im not pro Israel ether I know kinda divided loyaltys)

[terbang]

History books, especially on conflict, are nearly allways written by the victor thus generallly taking a rather one sided view with the side of the conquered disappearing with them. The news media, whilst trying to accurately depict events, also have to bow down to thier owners political point of view and therefore cannot be an accurate scource of the full story.
Reading some of the posts here I cannot help but notice a few referring to the Isralis being the origional occupiers of the land and that it is an automatic right for them to get it back..! So where does that leave us here in NZ.? The Maori were here well before European though they wern't kicked off it, they certainly lost control of it as a result of european settlement so by your reasoning they should take back control of New Zealand..?

[jazbug5]

The Maori were here well before European though they wern't kicked off it, they certainly lost control of it as a result of european settlement so by your reasoning they should take back control of New Zealand..?

Yeah, I was wondering that...?

[Winston001]

The Maori were here well before European though they wern't kicked off it, they certainly lost control of it as a result of european settlement so by your reasoning they should take back control of New Zealand..?

Indeed Maori activists say exactly that. They see themselves as being the same as the Palestinians.

For most of the world, the Diaspora in 325AD (when the Romans moved the Jews along) is nothing more than an historical fact. Just as the English did with the Scottish Clearances in the 18th century, and Red Indians Trail of Tears in the USA.

Reversal of historical oppression is impossible and we can't say that the Israelis have an automatic right to have the land back. Besides the Arabs have an equally long association with it.

How did Europeans come to live in NZ? By conquest. It was called colonisation but reinforced by guns, measles and smallpox. Basically we took the place over and no non-Maori Kiwi today is going to hand it back.

The Israelis settlers in Palestine purchased their land from about 1880 onward. When attacked in 1948 they overran the other side and took control of land which had been abandoned by Palestinian Arabs. Conquest.

So if it is good enough for us to stay here as a result of conquest, why should the Israelis be any different?

[Winston001]

Only because the Americans prop them up with billions in aid both financial and military

Not back in 1948. There was an international arms embargo. In fact they had ancient guns and were poorly armed, but managed eventually to get weapons from Czechoslovakia.

The Israelis won purely and simply because they were in a trap. The stated aim of the attacking Arab nations was (as it is for Iran today) "to drive the Jews into the sea". They had nothing to lose.

So it had nothing to do with Americans, modern weapons, or money. Just guts and desperation.

[MD]

The half wits fighting each other in the M.E. reminds me of a great line by Micheal Palin (I think it was him), at the Monty Python reunion about opposing religions. 'They all agree there is one great, kind, loving God and what he said, it's just how he said it that they can't agree on'.
When the fightings over can we have our oil back?

[Scouse]

Not back in 1948. There was an international arms embargo. In fact they had ancient guns and were poorly armed, but managed eventually to get weapons from Czechoslovakia.

The Israelis won purely and simply because they were in a trap. The stated aim of the attacking Arab nations was (as it is for Iran today) "to drive the Jews into the sea". They had nothing to lose.

So it had nothing to do with Americans, modern weapons, or money. Just guts and desperation.

I wasnt talking about back in 1948 If you have a look at youre post you are saying that Israel IS a thriving democracy. my post in answer to this

Israel is a thriving democracy with a strong economy (no oil) and stands in stark contrast to every Arab nation surrounding it. It was largely desert 100 years ago.

is about the present situation the only reason Israel thrives is because America props up Israel with billions in aid both financial and military.

[SARGE]

With respect, Hamas has not only indiscriminately murdered Israeli civilians but also other Palestinian political opponents.

Furthermore "tens of thousands of Palestinians murdered" isn't true. However there have certainly been innocent people killed and Israel is responsible for turning a blind eye to the Phalangists actions in south Lebanon in September 1982.

.

funny you should mention that .. i was actually part of the UNMNF (United Nations Multi-National Force) that went in to clean up that clusterfuck. because of that, i lost 241 of my brothers. history will never tel you who was responsible for it, but a select few of us know who lit the fuse on that one, and it was NOT Hamas.

Only because the Americans prop them up with billions in aid both financial and military (no disresect Sarge cause I have always had a great time whenever I have visited the States and have always been treated exceptionaly well and Im not anti American but Im not pro Israel ether I know kinda divided loyaltys)

see above as to why i am not pro- Israel. Israel has a way of directing events on a global scale, notwithstanding the destruction of a Marine Amphibious Unit who, for all intents and purposes, was a neutral party trying to buffer the Israelis and PLO


READ THIS


chapter 4 is a delightful read....

[TwoSeven]

I wasnt talking about back in 1948 If you have a look at youre post you are saying that Israel IS a thriving democracy. my post in answer to this is about the present situation the only reason Israel thrives is because America props up Israel with billions in aid both financial and military.

This isnt actually true at all and I would expect you'd be hard pressed to find any material that supports your claim.

From memory Israel has always had a policy of being fully self sufficient, both in arms and food - it develops pretty much all of its own weaponry and equipment. It does however, work on joint defense projects with the US. In the same way that austrialia does.

Israels economy is generally both knowledge based and the conversion of raw (imported) materials to larger products. It also works in the diamond and silicon industries.

[SARGE]

This isnt actually true at all and I would expect you'd be hard pressed to find any material that supports your claim.

From memory Israel has always had a policy of being fully self sufficient, both in arms and food - it develops pretty much all of its own weaponry and equipment. It does however, work on joint defense projects with the US. In the same way that austrialia does.

.

Israel also works closely with the EU (Mirage fighter) and most of their armor and heavy artillery is the product of israeli development with little or no outside help

[jimbo600]

Israel also works closely with the EU (Mirage fighter) and most of their armor and heavy artillery is the product of israeli development with little or no outside help

I do believe the alpha armour that used to be on our APCs was of Israeli extraction.

[myvice]

Just let them go at it, they can settle there differences the same way they have for thousands of years.
And when the dust settles the four or five hundred people left can have all the land they want, wherever they want.
It could be a good idea to let the area purge itself from all of the warring nations, Iran, Lebanon, Sirrea(sp?) most of the Middle East and North Africa would be rubble but its what they want to do and who are we to stop them?
If they are killing each other then they stop bombing us!
If we get them the peace that WE want for them they might end up as a united front against us in the end!
The trick would be to keep other countries out of it, China would back anyone with communist ideals, and Russia would be selling arms hand over fist...
Gives us some entertainment, beats reality TV...

[Jamezo]

The funniest thing I have read about all this was the start of an article, which read something like: "This election is a saddening blow to America's decades-long campaign to peace for the middle east"

I almost choked on my toast!

Last time I checked, "peace in" is not synonymous with "control of".....