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Thread: Some Diagnosis.

  1. #1

    Some Diagnosis.

    I've had a couple of cars in this week that I've had to diagnose electronic problems on,so thought I might take you through how I blunder my way to success.I haven't done much of this over the last couple of years,personal problems and now living 85km from work hasn't given me much time - and I normaly do this after hours,I could of knocked both these out over a glass of wine in 1/2hr each after work,but both were 2 day repairs.

    We'll look at the 1992 Mitisubishi Lancer first,towed in as a no go and told by the AA that the fuel pump was faulty (yeah right) It starts and runs for a couple of seconds and stops,sounds like it's running out of fuel alright.The first thing I pick up for diagnosis is my Snap On Vantage,a Dual Channel Graphing Digital Multimeter (GDMM) with built in data base,it's very easy to use and uses a couple of D cells which last for months.I want to check the fuel pump first,so hook my Low Amp probe on and access the fuel pump wire,can't find the fuse to loop into,so rip out the rear seat and hook into the fuel pump wire with the clamp probe....the first image shows the amp draw on the fuel pump,each hump is a bar of the comutator.If I knew how many bars on the com I could calculate rpm,but don't see the need - the wave form looks clean,speed about right,and it runs all the way until the engine stops,so I reckon the pumps ok.If the amps went high and the pump slowed down I'd say it was siezing or the filter was blocked,if it speeded up with low amps I'd say it was running out of fuel...if it cut out as the engine stopped the pump would be faulty.

    I also notice it's only running on 2 cyl,2 & 3 are out,the plugs are ok,leads ok,and both coils have the same resistance.Luckily we have a Mirage in with the same 4G91 engine for an alt repair,so we do the old swapparoo,change coils and ign module between cars - the Lancer coils and module work perfectly in the Mirage,the Lancer still has 2 cyls out with the Mirage parts.
    That means the signal from the computer is missing for those cyls,so go off on another tangent to check the computer.Mitsi's have bad computers and it will pay to check before I go any further,we pluck the board out and see it has already had a couple of capacitors replaced,and repairs to the circuit board as leaking caps damage them,there is some signs of overheating and other signs of stress....we put it back in with that knowledge in the back of my mind.

    Back on the case I have my scanner hooked up and clear the codes and check some inputs and outputs.Checking the injector pulse I find this is what's killing the engine - it runs up,then the injectors quit and it dies,confirmed on the scanner,it keeps bringing up cam angle sensor fault,so I check the cam and crank sensors.I check the cam/crank sensor and find the crank sensor good as in the second image,but just a 5 volt line for the can sensor - so that's it,fault found.

    The cam/crank sensor is on the back of the cyl head where the distributor used to sit,so get a second hand unit and fit it - the motor fires up on 4 cyls and continues to run...fixed! The next image is the missing cam angle sensor wave form,both these are Hall Effect sensors and so show a nice square wave form,the crank sensor is even and tells the computer how fast it's going,the cam sensor tells where the motor is,and as it's a DIS 4 cyl with 2 coils each coil fires once a rev,so a wide and narrow wave form.

    OK,so maybe I should of plugged the scanner in first,but it won't tell me if the fuel pump is faulty,so I felt I needed to eliminate the pump first,and I also needed to confirm a coil fault wasn't knocking out those 2 cyls.These images were captured on my Fluke 98,a DSO (Digital Storage Oscilloscope) it's much more powerful than the Vantage and I use it to narrow down on a fault.
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  2. #2
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    Very nice work Mr Motu. I know where I'd be taking my car if I lived up your way.
    If a man is alone in the woods and there isn't a woke Hollywood around to call him racist, is he still white?



  3. #3
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    yup, nice work alright..
    my 'Check Engine' light keeps coming on, and then going out after a few seconds on my 98 impreza even tho nothing changes with the car. Can ya fix that?
    or is the car just bored and making sure I'm paying attention?

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by bugjuice
    yup, nice work alright..
    my 'Check Engine' light keeps coming on, and then going out after a few seconds on my 98 impreza even tho nothing changes with the car. Can ya fix that?
    or is the car just bored and making sure I'm paying attention?
    Used to happen on my Subaru too. Got rid of the horrid piece of junk and voila, no more problem.
    Do you realise how many holes there could be if people would just take the time to take the dirt out of them?

  5. #5
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    Damn, I wish I had some flash toys like that!
    It's just one of those days, where you don't wanna wake up,
    everything is fucked, everybody sucks,
    You don't really know why but you wanna justify ripping someone's head off

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by bugjuice
    yup, nice work alright..
    my 'Check Engine' light keeps coming on, and then going out after a few seconds on my 98 impreza even tho nothing changes with the car. Can ya fix that?
    or is the car just bored and making sure I'm paying attention?
    That's an easy one BJ, take the bulb out!
    It's just one of those days, where you don't wanna wake up,
    everything is fucked, everybody sucks,
    You don't really know why but you wanna justify ripping someone's head off

  7. #7
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    Excellent!
    Speed doesn't kill people.
    Stupidity kills people.

  8. #8
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    That is all.

  9. #9
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    I love reading shit like this, always interesting for wannabe mechanics like myself, thanks Motu.
    Homer you shot the zombie Flanders !
    He was a Zombie?

  10. #10
    I was wondering if I could get those images out of that programe.Check Engine light setting and going out means it's got an intermitent fault,it may be nothing,or something ready to fail anytime soon.Subaru's have mega AC ripple from the alt,this can upset the old computer sometimes.

    Next was a 1997 Mitsubishi Legnum with a 6A12 V6,actualy it was first,having come in on saturday afternoon,so look at it first thing monday.It runs,but dies under load,if you are gentle it'll rev,but any throttle kills it....air flow meter is my first thought.I hook the scanner in first on this one,I can get pretty good data out of these,but the codes I get are pretty well crap...like vehicle speed sensor has got nothing to do with it sitting on the floor.I scope the air flow meter and it looks good....I have a suspicion about the ign system so send my mechanic off onto a good tune up on it.You have to remove the inlet manifold on these to access the plugs and leads on the rear cyl head...the rear plugs are plats,the leads ok and we replace the front plugs which are just standard jobs.

    I go off on a tangent with this one too - I get a bee in my bonnet about the idle air control valve...it tests fine,but out of the throttle body when the key is turned the pintle won't retract to the wide open position like it should,we do the swaparoo with the Lancer which has the same IAC valve.Same thing,hooked up to the Lancer both IACs retact the pintle,both don't work in the Legnum - only one thing controls the idle,the computer.OK,I'll file that.

    We haven't fixed a thing,it still dies under load,so now I can hook the Fluke up and check the ignition - the first image shows what I saw,not a good look.The Fluke 98 is a powerful DSO set up for automotive use,and I find it good for ign diagnosis,and I can really crank the time base down to some silly figures - here I have focused on the ignition event,that's the plug firing - we are watching the spark as it's actualy going across the gap.The plug is firing,but burn time is almost non existant,the voltage just fades away in that sloping arc.I reckon that a load is just killing the spark,and so it dies.

    But how to prove? We have to get that coil out and have a look at it,but it's part of the dist and burried deep - we have to pull a few things like half the cooling system apart to get it out,remove the Hall Effect cam angle sensor and get the coil out of the body.There is no physical damage,and resistance tests inconclusive - readings are all over the place,the primary readings keep changing and it takes me some time to settle on what I think they are.But they are out of spec,and I take the gamble to get another used dist for $395 retail.I test the replacement and find the figures good - fit the dist and the engine starts and runs fine - fixed!

    The second image is the new dist and coil - it shows a good flat burn line of over 2 ms,with a burn voltage of 1.28kv,that's pretty good and the motor no longer dies under load.mission accomplished.
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  11. #11
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    Fascinating stuff. My respect for auto-electricians is vastly enhanced. Very enjoyable.

  12. #12
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    Hey Motu, have you ever considered a book, or maybe a column for a motoring mag?

    I'd read it.
    And I to my motorcycle parked like the soul of the junkyard. Restored, a bicycle fleshed with power, and tore off. Up Highway 106 continually drunk on the wind in my mouth. Wringing the handlebar for speed, wild to be wreckage forever.

    - James Dickey, Cherrylog Road.

  13. #13
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    Lovely stuff Motu!
    90% of the time spent writing this post was spent thinking of something witty to say. It may have been wasted.

  14. #14
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    damn good,interesting reading,thank you
    Gone to bed with a 10 @ 2 and woken up with a 2 @ 10 (Willie Nelson)

  15. #15
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    A good friend of mine is a talented auto electrician (sadly defected to briz). His best advice ever is:

    Listen to what people say, but don’t listen to what people say.(customers in his case)

    ie: Someone tells you it is the fuel pump or whatever you will let it cloud your judgement. I’m surprised in some threads here that people don’t describe the symptoms very clearly at all & leave out what they have previously done, has it ever run properly or what the vehicle is.
    Don't you look at my accountant.
    He's the only one I've got.

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