Braided brake lines

**vifferman** · 30th March 2004, 08:56

Hi there.

I'm new to "Kiwi Biker" (as of right now) and I've just fitted Aerotek-BSR braided stainless steel brake lines to my VTR. Now I've been informed that they may not be road legal, as they don't have crimped-on fittings (they use bolt-on bits). Does anyone know for sure what the regulations are? I've done mutliple Google searches, and I can't find the information pertaining to this. The nearest I've got is something saying that brakes may not have potentially unsafe connections, or vague crapola to that effect.

**pete376403** · 30th March 2004, 09:15

Last time I got a warrant, the guy said he would pass the hoses "this time" but technically they are not legal as they don't have an approval number (ie DOT) I had a look at the hoses on a Triumph Speed Triple here at work and there is a sleeve on the hose with various numbers.
I fabricated the hoses on my bike with parts from BMS in Wellington. They are a zillion times better than the previous rubber things which, in spite of being crap, were legal. I'm seriously considering putting the old ones back on for the wof, then reverting to the good uns.

It seems once a vehicle has been failed and the data entered into the system, you can't go somewhere else for a second opinion
WOF inspectors have considerable power and some of them get a real hard-on using it (or a wide-on, in the case of the female inspectress at the testing station in Tory St, who failed my work vehicle for an empty windscreen washer bottle. I should have pissed in it while she waited)

**vifferman** · 30th March 2004, 09:34

Thanx, Pete. Not quite the news I was hoping for, but at least it's more data to work with.

Like you say, they're a million times better than the stock ones, and if the stupid inspectors exercised a bit of common sense it would be helpful. Are they safe? Do they work? So what's the problem?

I had the Pajero I used to own failed for a WOF because it was missing one of the tags on the back seatbelt. Any moron could see that (a) the belts were all the factory-fitted ones (apart from the driver's, which I'd had replaced after it had been passed through the WOF process FOUR times despite being frayed!!), and that (b) the other ones in the back had the tags, so WTF did it matter if one didn't?!? It was the same freakin belt, for goodness sake!

**Deano** · 30th March 2004, 09:52

Originally Posted by pete376403

Last time I got a warrant, the guy said he would pass the hoses "this time" but technically they are not legal as they don't have an approval number (ie DOT) I had a look at the hoses on a Triumph Speed Triple here at work and there is a sleeve on the hose with various numbers.
I fabricated the hoses on my bike with parts from BMS in Wellington. They are a zillion times better than the previous rubber things which, in spite of being crap, were legal. I'm seriously considering putting the old ones back on for the wof, then reverting to the good uns.

It seems once a vehicle has been failed and the data entered into the system, you can't go somewhere else for a second opinion
WOF inspectors have considerable power and some of them get a real hard-on using it (or a wide-on, in the case of the female inspectress at the testing station in Tory St, who failed my work vehicle for an empty windscreen washer bottle. I should have pissed in it while she waited)

I got hassled by the local WOF inspector for braided brake lines - I had to show that they met DOT standards - I can't recall the numbers but they were FMVSS standards approved and had a DOT number on them.

I got the WOF eventually - I belive the confusion arose from LTSA putting out a new booklet to guide inspectors in issuing WOF's, BUT as it was simplified, the guide did not state that some braided brake lines were ok, providing they met the FMVSS standard.

The concern being that some crimped lines have blown leaving the rider with no brakes. I have rechecked the Traffic Reg's 1990, but appears that the brake standard listing has been revoked. Maybe they have outlawed them all since I had mine.

**Motu** · 30th March 2004, 10:00

With the way things work these days Pete,if your front brake fails and you kill yourself they come looking for someone to blame - you're dead,so the inspector who ''let it go this once'' is done for manslaughter....any wonder no one wants to put their neck in the noose.Someones got to put their name on these things as being safe - that means whoever made them,and if they are approved by the LTSA to do brake hoses then that's ok...oh,you done it yerself eh,yeah right....next please!

It doesn't matter if your vehicle is enterd into the system as a fail,all you have to do is pass,it doesn't have to be passed by the same crowd that failed it - but you will have to pay another inspection fee.

**MikeL** · 30th March 2004, 10:19

I had a talk with Mike at Red Baron just after I got my CB400 a year and a half ago. I wanted to put braided lines on as a relatively cheap way to improve the mediocre braking on this bike, and he told me I would have no end of WOF troubles and so I abandoned the idea. As has been noted elsewhere on this forum, the steady tightening up in the WOF regulations has now reached the point where the law of diminishing returns applies and it constitutes another insidious erosion of freedom as well as an extra form of taxation. How many of the deaths and injuries on the roads have been directly or even indirectly attributable to mechanical defects other than the obvious ones of bald tyres and worn brakes?
Where is the lobbying coming from? Vehicle importers??
I'm tempted to get the braided lines anyway and keep the old ones for the WOF check. I suspect there might be some insurance implications though...

**Motu** · 30th March 2004, 12:52

This is straight from the VIRM - open for your interpretation

Requirements for rejection

g) is a stainless steel braided brake hose that is not:

i used to substitute OE hoses only,and

ii designed specifically for highway use,and

iii can be identified as complying with a recognised approved automotive standard(such as FMVSS - 106)

Do you understand that? if you do,read it a few more times until you are confused!

I take it to mean that if it had stainless hoses OE,then it can have replacment ones fitted...I don't know how not for highway use hoses differ from highway hoses.Recognised automotive standard such as....and they only give us one - uh,what other standards apply guys,thanks a lot eh.

My Honda has a stainless hose and has some band around the top,I take that as some sort of standard at least.

**F5 Dave** · 30th March 2004, 13:00

Yes my previously homologated parts braided lines are now illegal

, I muttered & groaned but ended up getting some more made by Alert Engineering in Auckland. Just sent the originals away & got them to reproduce them, However I had already a 2 line system, 3 line system will be more expensive.
If you do go to a 2 line system make sure the lines are long enough with the wheel off the ground & you have suitable brackets to hold the lines out of the way.

Alert make up Hel brand lines (quick search on web will find them) & these are LTSA approved, crimped properly & have the right numbers & get away from the legal hassle of ‘I didn’t build these up myself’. I considered the legal implications & insurance & figured it was worthwhile. Having said that I also fitted R1 callipers which strictly speaking; any changes to the brake components require certification. Even changing the master cylinder I was told.

Screw ‘em! :sneaky2: they work a million times better & are std on R1s & most assessors wouldn’t be able to tell they aren’t std & if they argued you could say -prove it, this model has them.

**FzerozeroT** · 30th March 2004, 19:36

easiest way is toget them fitted at a garage that does WOF's, they will pass them forever and a day, otherwise you getthem to fix them cause they legally have to do them to a WOF standard

**merv** · 30th March 2004, 21:44

Originally Posted by Motu

This is straight from the VIRM - open for your interpretation

Requirements for rejection

g) is a stainless steel braided brake hose that is not:

i used to substitute OE hoses only,and

ii designed specifically for highway use,and

iii can be identified as complying with a recognised approved automotive standard(such as FMVSS - 106)

Motu the bit of the VIRM you have quoted I read that as not applying to motorcycles (except the three wheeler classes) but if you read the bit about motorcycle brakes here http://www.ltsa.govt.nz/publications...-mc-brakes.pdf you'll see its similar but different and damned near as confusing. The guts of it seems to be that they are expecting near enough like for like replacement and braided lines are only OK if braided were supplied as OEM in the first place.

Also the modification can be signed off by a qualified vehicle certifier if you can find such a person, otherwise the person checking the machine is obliged to follow the VIRM. i.e a bit like getting an engineers certificate for the work. Probably more hassle than its worth.

**Motu** · 30th March 2004, 22:57

It was out of the motorcycle section of the VIRM,but it's damn near the same as the car section with a couple of motorcycle bits tossed in,hidden in the bullshit.But yeah,I read it like you - if they came OE they're ok,if they are replacment for rubber make sure they have some sort of marking you can bullshit as being official.I'm lucky,the guy who does my bike WoFs is not the full quid,he's always half pissed when he does mine...nod,nod...wink,wink.

**Rodders** · 31st March 2004, 01:44

I have just got braided lines for tke R1 - work great. I took my original lines in and got them made up by ALERT ENGINEERING 7 Gabador Pl Mt Wellington ph 5731008 and they give you a Certificate of LTSA compliance. They have been certified by LTSA and use HEL brand lines from UK. I have some threaded braided brake lines on another bike and I used some black electrical wiring heat shrink over the outside of the fittings and had no problem getting a WOF -Good Luck

**k14** · 31st March 2004, 09:03

How much does it normally cost to get braided lines made by a certified place?

**merv** · 31st March 2004, 12:38

Originally Posted by Motu

It was out of the motorcycle section of the VIRM,but it's damn near the same as the car section with a couple of motorcycle bits tossed in,hidden in the bullshit.But yeah,I read it like you - if they came OE they're ok,if they are replacment for rubber make sure they have some sort of marking you can bullshit as being official.I'm lucky,the guy who does my bike WoFs is not the full quid,he's always half pissed when he does mine...nod,nod...wink,wink.

You're right, looks like my LTSA links were all screwed up and I was looking at the August 2002 VIRM on motorcycles, not the July 2003 one that reads the same as the bit on cars. The old one used to say

Requirements for rejection

17. A flexible brake hose (including connections):
a) is a different type or specification than OE (e.g. non-OE braided hoses), or

etc etc

That seems a bit clearer than the new one which some bureaucrat has seen fit to change so that no one really understands it.

Rodders picks up the point that the right place can certify the lines and anyone wanting braided lines should do it that way.

k14 has asked about cost - Rodders should answer that as he has had some done.