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Thread: Watch This

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by spudchucka
    I simply don't see the death of an innocent party due to a traffic crash following a pursuit being compared with a state execution of a convicted criminal or wrongly convicted innocent as being a fair and reasonable analogy.

    Its the sort of over emotional nonsense that people get away with on internet forums.
    "Over emotional", moi? That's a bit rich...
    O.K., let me spell it out. The analogy depends on the following parallel: In both situations society is aiming to achieve a benefit. If capital punishment deters, or at least removes potential re-offenders, everyone in society gains, except the occasional innocent victim executed by mistake. If police chases deter, or at least take off the roads dangerous drivers, everyone in society gains, except the occasional innocent victim. In both cases the innocent victim can be seen as an unavoidable cost of achieving the benefit. If capital punishment continues to be applied it is because society as a whole is comfortable with the ratio of benefit to cost. Likewise with road chase fatalities. The intention is not an issue. A judicial system does not set out to execute innocent people. The police do not intend, and genuinely regret, the deaths of innocent people. However, faced with the suggestion that the cost is too high, and that the existing policy should be abandoned, rather than honestly conceding the brutal reality of an acceptable level of collateral damage, they squirm and hedge and avoid the question by shifting the debate to the responsibility of the offender. The proponents of capital punishment used to insist that mistakes were impossible; faced with undeniable evidence to the contrary, they have at least had the courage of their convictions (as it were) now to admit that it does occasionally happen, but continue to insist that this is a price worth paying for the greater good.

    From one ethical point of view, there is an argument that says it is better for 100 guilty men to go unpunished than for one innocent man to be condemned.
    Most people familiar with the harsh realities of law enforcement would reject that notion as impossibly idealistic. I have never maintained that policing was anything other than arduous, challenging and frustrating work in which compromises have to be made at times. All I want to see is openness, integrity, commonsense and the willingness to engage in meaningful dialogue. Dismissing reasoned argument as over-emotional nonsense is a cop- out.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeL
    ............ All I want to see is openness, integrity, commonsense and the willingness to engage in meaningful dialogue. Dismissing reasoned argument as over-emotional nonsense is a cop- out.
    I agree.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackrat
    Should be good for a yarn afterwards
    Jeez Jack, you sure know how to "bait" a thread>
    “- He felt that his whole life was some kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.”

  3. #33
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    Bah...

    Discussed ad nausem, I remove my thread...

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeL
    Dismissing reasoned argument as over-emotional nonsense is a cop- out.
    Although I see the point you intend to make I don't see your arguement as being reasonable - period.

  5. #35
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    Perhaps Mike's post was a little too dense for careful analysis by some of us with less time to linger.

    It seems easy enough. A police pursuit policy has benefits and risks. They should be easy to weigh, particularly in the presence of evidence that removes the necessity for speculation on precisely what those risks and benefits *are*. Such evidence does exist.

    I can't actually see Mike arguing for one point or another. He's just doing what I spend most of *my* time doing, online and off... trying to define the debate in proper and rational terms.
    kiwibiker is full of love, an disrespect.
    - mikey

  6. #36
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    could not chasing offenders driving vehicles be compared to not taking a firearm to a suspected gun or offensive weapon incident, just in case someone innocent got hurt? how about this scenario. police have a 'no chase' policy. does that include no chasing of ag robbers who have just held up a bank with a gun? does that include escaped prisoners? drink/disqualified/unlicenced drivers? people pushing drugs to your kids?

    the challenge is to meet midway, the risks and the outcomes, and to minimise harm to the general public on the way. even for the unwarranted (possibly dangerous) car, if it speeds off, police don't chase, then the wheel falls off, killing a child on their way to school, i guarantee the police will be in the firing line for not dealing with it at the time, once again having to either make excuses for not dealing with it when they could.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by marty
    could not chasing offenders driving vehicles be compared to not taking a firearm to a suspected gun or offensive weapon incident, just in case someone innocent got hurt? how about this scenario. police have a 'no chase' policy. does that include no chasing of ag robbers who have just held up a bank with a gun? does that include escaped prisoners? drink/disqualified/unlicenced drivers? people pushing drugs to your kids?

    the challenge is to meet midway, the risks and the outcomes, and to minimise harm to the general public on the way. even for the unwarranted (possibly dangerous) car, if it speeds off, police don't chase, then the wheel falls off, killing a child on their way to school, i guarantee the police will be in the firing line for not dealing with it at the time, once again having to either make excuses for not dealing with it when they could.
    Thats just too much commom sense in one post for most people to digest in one sitting.

  8. #38
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    No, it is overly emotional use of inappropriate analogies.
    Lou

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lou Girardin
    No, it is overly emotional use of inappropriate analogies.
    Lou
    A bit like you comparing road policing to Nazi Germany and the holocaust. Fool!!

    the challenge is to meet midway, the risks and the outcomes, and to minimise harm to the general public on the way.
    How do you figure that to be over emotional or inappropriate?

  10. #40
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    Fast Money

    This Sunday night (16th May), 7:30 on TVOne
    Doco about speed cameras, Stalkers, speeding fines and LTSA statistics lies.
    Could be worth a watch.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Racey Rider
    This Sunday night (16th May), 7:30 on TVOne
    Doco about speed cameras, Stalkers, speeding fines and LTSA statistics lies.
    Could be worth a watch.
    Bugger - the wife is addicted to top gear. Might be tough to convince her to change over for "conspiracy theories"
    And I to my motorcycle parked like the soul of the junkyard. Restored, a bicycle fleshed with power, and tore off. Up Highway 106 continually drunk on the wind in my mouth. Wringing the handlebar for speed, wild to be wreckage forever.

    - James Dickey, Cherrylog Road.

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