Nukes??

[kickingzebra]

Maybe a trite argument, but how many people in NZ regularly, knowingly fund wars against civilians?? probably few to be fair, but with population wide acceptance? I speak loudly about the agenda of Islam, but has anyone ever seen me to condone slaughtering them all? Men woman and Children?

Iran is a vocal supporter of the slaughter of all Israel.

Shouldn't that say something? Free speech does have a place, because with speech one can only go so far, and in a society such as our own, with a reasonable amount of balance, and no real needs, only a few very foolish people will take an extremist stance (thinking National Front etc in NZ) but they are relatively toothless organisations, who would probably not stomach the killing required to fulfill their rhetoric.

By the way, where can I get the above T shirt in a tainui version?!!?

The argument is how far people will go to defend their beliefs, and how extreme said beliefs are. I ain't going to kill you if you don't believe in what I do. I wouldn't even beat you up, or throw firebombs at your house. I would just talk to you, and as my mood at the time dictated, whether I treated your viewpoints with curiousity, or just wanted to debunk you, and then, depending on how the chat went, I would decide whether I was going to pay for the coffee/beer/meal or just halve it.

Is Iran capable of deploying nuclear weapons to get their own way? yes, is any other nuclear country inthe world? yes Would any of the other countries in the world? No, they have sat on the horror too long, so it is just detterant value. Would Iran? same as USA, the world already thinks they are crazy, so what do they have to lose??

There is the difference.

[kickingzebra]

Oh wouldn't they? Japan springs to mind. And America does seem to be a slow learner when it comes to "Might is right..."

Funny that, the general consensus on Japan in attached thread seems to be that at that time, they were such a menace, no one could control them, so killing them off was understandable, and acceptable, in a wartime situation.

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...756#post574756

Look where said Japan is now?? Financially underpinning the NZ dollar (and our excess spending) exporting product to every nation under the sun...

America said it would do what it did, and they did, and they won. 50 years, and anti american sentiment runs rafe, but everyone recognises and fears USA...
And now would do likewise to Japan too it is worth noting.

[Winston001]

You don't seriously believe that Helen is the woman for handling armed confrontation? Whats she going to do, take them tramping?

Gotta green you for that.

[Hoon]

Its always been about oil. The only people that don't believe this are the Bush supporters who fell for the "War on Terrorism" con. So much for liberating Iraq. Its worse today than it ever was and it'll take another Sadam dictatorship to sort it out. However Bush has his oil contracts so he's happy.

US is also worried about Chinas booming economy. The only thing holding China back is lack of oil. China had that sorted when they closed an oil deal with Iraq a few years back but Bush put an end to that.

However Iran is a different kettle of fish! They've existed in relative comfort for the last 15 years and unlike Iraq who have been strained with internal conflict and 2 wars, Iran has a very capable Army. Iran is now the only regional military power that poses a significant conventional military threat to Gulf stability and could easily shut the gulf down if they wanted to. This would annoy Bush's Country Club mates to no end. They also have a very adequate anti-air defence and those russian missiles which can intercept anything the US throws their way so you can understand why they aren't intimidated by Bushs chest beating.

They know Bush would have to be an idiot (even by his standards) to go to War with Iran. Iraq would be lost - at the moment the US is only fighting off the Sunni's insurgents but going against Iran will also solidify the Shiites. Syria is in a pact with Iran and they aint no slouches either.

Ohh and last year China signed a $70 billion oil deal with Iran.

[Quasievil]

Iran is a vocal supporter of the slaughter of all Israel.

Not exactly true, a large number of Iranians support the slaughter of Israel, there is a difference, trouble is the leader of Iran President Mahmoud Ahadinejad believes categorically that the coming of the Messiah will be only when the holocaust comes and by that he means the end of Israel ie Nuking it, thats what he wants, he is a fundementalist and he is doing every thing to go down that path, Unfortunetly he has the power.
Its actually not all about money, the politices are in part but there is the above issue which doesnt just mean money, it means potental major war.

Those of you who disagree with the USA, I understand why, but think of a world where the USA isnt the super power,what would the situation be then, who would be there to sought out the issues of the world, what if Russia or China where the superpower ?

Its all a fine balance and involves very delicate situations.

About 15 months ago I was in Tehran, even posted on here whilst there if you look it up, for me I feel sorry for the people, they are oppressed and have been for years, bo not think they are all radical and gunslinging, they are not, they are mostly kind loving people, do not tarnish them based on what you see on TV.
I actually did not feel safe there because I looked like an american, but the people I did get to know where very nice.
For the rest of the middle east I loved it, it is NOT what you think, I would gladly walk down any street over there way before I would walk down the main street of Hamilton or Auckland at 3.00am believe me!!!
(except Iraq didnt go there Kuwait I did, that was safe to)

Thats my contribution

[James Deuce]

Maybe a trite argument, but how many people in NZ regularly, knowingly fund wars against civilians?? probably few to be fair, but with population wide acceptance? I speak loudly about the agenda of Islam, but has anyone ever seen me to condone slaughtering them all? Men woman and Children?

Iran is a vocal supporter of the slaughter of all Israel.

Shouldn't that say something? Free speech does have a place, because with speech one can only go so far, and in a society such as our own, with a reasonable amount of balance, and no real needs, only a few very foolish people will take an extremist stance (thinking National Front etc in NZ) but they are relatively toothless organisations, who would probably not stomach the killing required to fulfill their rhetoric.

By the way, where can I get the above T shirt in a tainui version?!!?

The argument is how far people will go to defend their beliefs, and how extreme said beliefs are. I ain't going to kill you if you don't believe in what I do. I wouldn't even beat you up, or throw firebombs at your house. I would just talk to you, and as my mood at the time dictated, whether I treated your viewpoints with curiousity, or just wanted to debunk you, and then, depending on how the chat went, I would decide whether I was going to pay for the coffee/beer/meal or just halve it.

Is Iran capable of deploying nuclear weapons to get their own way? yes, is any other nuclear country inthe world? yes Would any of the other countries in the world? No, they have sat on the horror too long, so it is just detterant value. Would Iran? same as USA, the world already thinks they are crazy, so what do they have to lose??

There is the difference.

So the vocal viewpoint of a minority Islamic sect, sets the tone for what you believe all of Islam stands for? I work with a shitload of muslims and we have professional disagreements every day. None of them have EVER threatened ti kill me, despite me being fairly annoying. They are also respectful of our culture to a fault. You haven't presented an argument you've represented the propaganda designed to vilify all Muslims. Most of whom are just like you and me. They like food, sex, friendship, good housing, and trying to make the future a little better for their kids.

The weapons grade uranium found in Iran has been found to be most likely provided by Pakistan. So when are the US going to invade Pakistan? What? You say they have no oil? And the country is a bunch of rocks next to Afghanistan? No worth it economically?

http://www.defensetech.org/archives/000544.html

So all "natives, "muslims", "wogs", and "niggers' are out to kill whitey? Is that REALLY an argument?

[Winston001]

The worse thing that Bush is doing is discrediting and destroying a nation as great as the USA. He's not fighting terrorism, hes fueling it.

Fair comment - but what else does he do? Neville Chamberlain practised the politics of appeasement with Adolph Hitler. The Germans were contemptuous of their weak European neighbours and used every olive branch to restore their armed forces. Diplomacy was an empty vessel when dealing with the Nazis.

Bush is clueless, and its taking a long time for his supporters to finally click that he really doesnt know what hes doing aside from whatever "base" tells him to. Basically (and im not including you in this) his supporters are simple folk, they like there to be a good guy and a bad guy in every story, they are fundamentalist christians who think that 911 and saddam hussain have strong links. They like to be talked to simply and to be reinforce in there blind patriotism and think the US is Always the good guy. They got hurt by 911 and felt weakened by it, and a good show of force will make them feel better. They generally dont know squat of the outside world.

Contrary to popular myth, Bush is an intelligent man with huge support. But it suits us to scorn him, irrational as that might be. He is after all, only one member of the American government. If Congress wanted to, they could stop the war. But they don't.

However you are correct about black and white. Thats politics everywhere. Complex arguments don't fit soundbites. So the lines between fact and fiction get blurred. Iraq may yet be a mistake but the moderate Middle East nations such as Egypt and Jordan have a vital interest in seeing a stable democratic Iraq. Not every Arab country is baying for US blood. In fact, Iran is pretty much alone in that.

[kickingzebra]

The weapons grade uranium found in Iran has been found to be most likely provided by Pakistan. So when are the US going to invade Pakistan? What? You say they have no oil? And the country is a bunch of rocks next to Afghanistan? No worth it economically?

http://www.defensetech.org/archives/000544.html

So all "natives, "muslims", "wogs", and "niggers' are out to kill whitey? Is that REALLY an argument?

Don't forget Chinks, Bungas and horis, to make Billy Ts quote complete...
I wasn't speaking to that effect, in fact, I believe I was talking about Israelis, jews, not really white skinned, but never mind...

India will keep Pakistan in check for now, and human rights there isn't the same issue. They pay the guys they put through the sewers to clean them, and don't chop them in little bits first.

Ok, so there may be a minority supporting extremist measures, but how the HELL did they get into power?

Average Joe Blow on the street won't likely go a killing, but ignoring a problem is tacit approval.
I don't think it is any exageration to say The governernment of Iran supports genocidal measures agaisnt the people of Israel.

Once that can of worms is opened, the whole middle east erupts into war, and that instability does effect the rest of us. But pump prices aren't the issue here. Supply is still there, money is still flowing.

Do you think finding a suitable alternative to oil would stop all tensions in the middle east? Extremely doubtful.

Do you think the same being true, America would stop playing big brother?
Again, I doubt it. We should thank God there is a country in the world big enough to give a toss, and try and do something about some of the worlds problems.

[Marmoot]

Maybe a trite argument, but how many people in NZ regularly, knowingly fund wars against civilians?? probably few to be fair, but with population wide acceptance? I speak loudly about the agenda of Islam, but has anyone ever seen me to condone slaughtering them all? Men woman and Children?

...

Shouldn't that say something? Free speech does have a place, because with speech one can only go so far, and in a society such as our own, with a reasonable amount of balance, and no real needs, only a few very foolish people will take an extremist stance (thinking National Front etc in NZ) but they are relatively toothless organisations, who would probably not stomach the killing required to fulfill their rhetoric.

...

I don't think so. Remember Cronulla. It's only a few weeks ago. People actually went out to look for trouble by bringing weapons in their droves.
Just an illustration to show how banal our 'civilized' society can become quite easily. Not too much different from our darker-coloured skin brethrens or Allah-worshippers, aren't we?

[kickingzebra]

Casualties in Cronulla? I am not saying that is acceptable, and I don't condone a bunch of drunk teenagers trying to fix the world problems, on the people in their back yard who may just have been trying to escape such nonsense.
People are sheep at best. Unfortunate truth. Even sheep can think..

[James Deuce]

Do you think the same being true, America would stop playing big brother?
Again, I doubt it. We should thank God there is a country in the world big enough to give a toss, and try and do something about some of the worlds problems.

The US doesn't "care" about anything except its own interests. Since the fall of the USSR there is no check on how and where they extend military force, or how they bludgeon other countries economically, and they don't even bother using any excuse when cutting a nation off at the knees if they don't agree with US "foreign policy".

You have got to be kidding if you think the US are trying to do anything except maintain the flow of oil from the Middle East, and make sure it is paid for in US dollars without having to touch their own national reserves. Iran is sitting on the world's 2nd or 3rd largest oil reserves and they're not allowed to export it. Petrol prices are rising because we're being manipulated into accepting that there is extreme unrest in the Middle East and that we have hit peak oil production. Neither situation is true, but it suits US "foreign policy" to malign countries whose cultures and values are different to their own.

Iran won't play the game the way the US want so they must be "evil", and "stupid". The Iranian president is now being characterised as "dangerous and unstable".

Winston001 said that Bush is intelligent - he isn't - he has the rat cunning of a very good manager, and the sense to surround himself with intelligent people who have a stake in what is important to oil driven corporate USofA.

I still don't see how a bunch of Saudi trained and equipped terrorists flying airliners into a couple of skyscrapers in NYC means that millions of people in countries not even economically aligned with Saudi Arabia have to suffer in a "War" on "Terrorism". Or that the Jews somehow managed to manipulate the US into the "war" on "Terrorism", and I certainly haven't seen any evidence of a reasoned, researched, deliberated response to anything I've said, except that "America cares".

[Marmoot]

The US doesn't "care" about anything except its own interests. Since the fall of the USSR there is no check on
...
...
and I certainly haven't seen any evidence of a reasoned, researched, deliberated response to anything I've said, except that "America cares".

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Jim2 again. :slap:

[sAsLEX]

In the beginning, there was oil.
Then oil makes money.
Then with money comes sex.

It is all about S E X

Edit: P.S. could we have some pictures to illustrate this final point please?

illustrate this final point

[kickingzebra]

Deleted, due to lack of critical acclaim... Na, I actually screwed up the posting... and realised after actually posting it, that this mk 1 had gone ahead without me...

[Biff]

Nahhh. But I bet my butt they're seriously thinking of dropping one of their special nuke bunker bombs.

I say they hit Iran by next Feb tops. But they wont initiate a 'proper' offensive unless Iran strike back.

Normally I'd say that Iran has a right to nukes, and that the US were being hypocritical. Then the Iranian publuic voted in a nutter of their own, who openly admits to the fact that he wants to wipe out Israel. Which, doesn't initially sound like a bad thing, but doing so will start a war to end all wars in the middle east. Not good.