New Zealand ID?

[toads]

When it comes, the great unwashed will say "if you've done nothing wrong, you don't have to worry".
That particular rational has lost us a lot of rights.

Exactly Lou, and what's worse the general population here in NZ seem to get their cues on what to think from watching TV, disturbing to hear people quoting last nights tv viewing as undisputable fact, personally I prefer to glean my own information from a variety of sources besides NZ free to air tv and make my own judgements, a national id card is just one more personal liberty down the toilet, in order to control the masses. I think it sux. By the way which of you out their would trust the powers that be with your life or the lives of your kids?

[MacD]

Of course you have a choice. If you don't want you credit details everywhere then do it the old fashion way and save money first.

I wasn't just referring to credit details. If data is being collected for a specific purpose then that's fine. I don't expect a bank/finance company to loan me money without assessing the risk, or an insurance company to insure me without asking for information. The issue becomes when apparently unrelated information starts being matched.

My point is that you really have no choice about giving consent in many cases, whether its financial, health related, travel related etc.

Do you really think without a national ID card you're any more hidden than with one ??

No, I'm not that naive (and I have some experience in this area). Its not a question of being hidden, its a question of what would a national ID card be used for, and do we really need one? Something that should be robustly debated, not just done because the somebody thought it would be a good idea.

[matthewt]

No, I'm not that naive (and I have some experience in this area). Its not a question of being hidden, its a question of what would a national ID card be used for, and do we really need one? Something that should be robustly debated, not just done because the somebody thought it would be a good idea.

Exactly, it all comes down to controls.

I imagine the selling points for those that want it would be to stop fraud of various kinds (benefit fraud or identity fraud). My problem is that I doubt if it was brought in there would be sufficient controls put in place. Being a Database guru I know just how easy it'll be for someone to tie all sorts of info together and how simple it would be for a data warehouse to start trawling that data.

Didn't I read somewhere that the police can now take DNA samples for people "suspected" of a crime that would lead to more than 7 years prison (or maybe it's in a bill before parliment) ?? As Pete said "Gattica here we come".

[BritStorm]

While there a lots of people saying no to an ID card, you're all using them in another name already - your birth cirtificates, passports and carrying your driving licence with you at all times. It's already here!

While I don't think there is a push towards an ID card here, there is a trial of them being started in the UK. I see the reason for this being developments in the storage of so-called biometric data such as fingerprints, retinal scans, embedded photo. This means there is something to actually cross reference on the spot. This is also one of the reasons you need to have your pic and prints takien enetering the US now as NZ does not yet (but it will soon) have a passport that contians such biometric info.

One of the resaons given in the UK for ID cards is to cut down on fraud against the Government. There really are many cases of multiple benefit applications over there - people with multipul identities just becase you can start with a National Inssurance (IRD) number and create your own identitiy from there. (I had a mate who used to work in Customs and apprently it's easy to creat multiple IDs.) Wasn't there something on Fair Go last year where people where getting hold of birth cirtificates (clearly no picture on that!) some utilty bills as proof of address, sitting a driving test and there you go - photo ID to do whatever you like with.

In short, ID is already here and compulsory if you want to do anything, it's just the methods used seem relatively easy to fake.

What would you think if a credit card company issued cards containg embedded biometric data? Would you think that's a great way of protecting me from fraud or just more big brother?

[matthewt]

While there a lots of people saying no to an ID card, you're all using them in another name already - your birth cirtificates, passports and carrying your driving licence with you at all times. It's already here!

Right you are, NZ'ers are already tagged with numerous ID by the govt and private businesses. It's not that hard already to tie several of those together.

Wasn't there something on Fair Go last year where people where getting hold of birth cirtificates (clearly no picture on that!) some utilty bills as proof of address, sitting a driving test and there you go - photo ID to do whatever you like with.

Yes, they sent in someone to renew a different persons drivers license. So the agency (the AA I think) actually put the persons photo (they never checked the existing photo matched the person in front of them) onto someone elses details and thus they "stole" the persons identity. It would of been easy from there to start getting other forms of ID in this persons name using the drivers license. They never told the person and showed up the next day to show him his new license with the other persons photo on.

[pete376403]

I looked at that at a US civil liberties site a few months ago, man they rushed that puppy through and now people are only just starting to realise what they have actually lost. A lot of it was pitched at helping "keep the US safe" but there have already been a number of cases where the Patriot act has been used to solve internal crimes.

Such as Jose Padilla, no doubt.

[matthewt]

Such as Jose Padilla, no doubt.

Yer, they kind of walked all over the 5th ammednment by slamming him in a navy brig for so long without charging him. I see that the US court of appeal voted 2-1 that a US citizen couldn't be an "emeny combatant". Very fishy that he went from being a material witness in a possible dirty bomb threat to a enemy combatant (and therefore held in the military brig without a warrant, access to an attorney, or any charges filed against him) the day before the judge was to rule on his status as a witness.

[jrandom]

Yer, they kind of walked all over the 5th ammednment by slamming him in a navy brig for so long without charging him

Due process. Hah. I don't think it exists anymore in the US, not if the gummint decides it has a relevant agenda.

They seem to be on a mission to draw a big red line through every one of the constitutional amendments. Wonder how long it'll take them to officially scrap the whole thing and form the 'People's Socialist Republic of America'.

[spudchucka]

Exactly, Didn't I read somewhere that the police can now take DNA samples for people "suspected" of a crime that would lead to more than 7 years prison (or maybe it's in a bill before parliment) ?? As Pete said "Gattica here we come".

Not people suspected of committing a crime, if they are "convicted" of a specified offence then a compulsion order can be applied for, it still needs to be granted by the Court.

All the arguements stated so far re a national ID card were rolled around on talk back etc when the photo drivers licences first came out. Personaly I don't see any need for a national ID card but really wouldn't care at all if it was introduced.

[Holy Roller]

All the arguements stated so far re a national ID card were rolled around on talk back etc when the photo drivers licences first came out. Personaly I don't see any need for a national ID card but really wouldn't care at all if it was introduced.

There talk of ID implants that have already been trailed similar to the ID implants that dogs can get so their owners can be found if little doggy gets lost. Then there's the smart card coming out we have to update our eftpos machine so that it is compliant with the new technology another big expense for small retailers.

[Hitcher]

Let's just cut to the chase and get personal ID barcodes tattoed on our foreheads. Could become an attractive fashion statement...

For the benefit of those so inclined...
Revelation 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

[matthewt]

Not people suspected of committing a crime, if they are "convicted" of a specified offence then a compulsion order can be applied for, it still needs to be granted by the Court.

All the arguements stated so far re a national ID card were rolled around on talk back etc when the photo drivers licences first came out. Personaly I don't see any need for a national ID card but really wouldn't care at all if it was introduced.

Hey Spud, if you're going to quote me don't cut and paste the middle out. When I said exactly (in bold) it had nothing to do with the dna thing.

Thanks for clearing the DNA bit up though.

[Marmoot]

Thank's for the info, guys.

But, now coming back to the beginning, consider this situation:
I'm working in a Hotel, where the management require a photo ID upon check in. The reason being we need to verify the identity (read: name) of the person checking in. Why? Because, if in case something breaks (e.g., somebody died, or the hotel caught on fire, or the person got involved in a fight, etc) we can verify the identity of the culprit, or the body, etc and that would save up some trouble. In the event of the extremes, we can probably find the person that is responsible.

Now, the problem begins with local people checking in and insisting they do not have ID for they never travel or drive.
I'd hate to say we cannot admit them, for this brings up quite a number of harsh debate.
But, then again, without photoID I cannot admit them.

Any suggestion on what to do?

What about 18+ card? Is it verifiable (in term of tracing the address, etc)?

[toads]

I think the main issue here, is while it makes sense to have a system that readily identifies individuals and ties all their details together neatly and tidily, the fact is most people value their privacy, the majority of people are reasonably honest and law abiding, the identification thing should be compulsory for all convicted felons and fraudsters, the rest of us should have a bloody choice, yes I know big brother has been here for a long time, but we can all choose to pay in cash, and not have hp's, once there is a bullet proof cashless system that is on a global scale, all that is out the window, the id card is how that system will be initiated and tied together, and yes a barcode on the forehead would be great cos then we could at least see who wasn't complying!

[pete376403]

Thank's for the info, guys.

But, now coming back to the beginning, consider this situation:
I'm working in a Hotel, where the management require a photo ID upon check in. The reason being we need to verify the identity (read: name) of the person checking in. Why? Because, if in case something breaks (e.g., somebody died, or the hotel caught on fire, or the person got involved in a fight, etc) we can verify the identity of the culprit, or the body, etc and that would save up some trouble. In the event of the extremes, we can probably find the person that is responsible.

Now, the problem begins with local people checking in and insisting they do not have ID for they never travel or drive.
I'd hate to say we cannot admit them, for this brings up quite a number of harsh debate.
But, then again, without photoID I cannot admit them.

Any suggestion on what to do?

What about 18+ card? Is it verifiable (in term of tracing the address, etc)?

You call your management and let them explain why the persons not having
a national ID card (complete with the bureaucracy that entails) just to possibly save the hotel management a bit of effort, means they can't stay . How many deaths, fires, fights does your hotel have on any given day? Doesn't sound like the sort of place I'd want to stay at.
I've stayed in quite a few hotels both in NZ and overseas and don't think I've ever been asked for photo ID (however this is all pre 9-11)