Realistic motorcycle simulator?

[erik]

Has anyone ever come across a motorcycle simulation or game that uses counter steering?
I've only tried motogp2 and it doesn't. If you want to move right, you push the controller right and the bike flops over to the right as if it was hinged to the road at its tyres.
It makes it impossible to weave side to side while going in essentially a straight line like racers do when warming up their tyres.

I find motogp2 pretty difficult to control and wonder if a more realistic simulation would be easier. Even if someone knows of a basic wireframe simulation that uses more realistic physics it would be interesting to try.
I haven't been able to find any by searching on google.

[Deano]

Have you tried MotoGP3 on X-Box ?

Kills PS2 hands down IMO.

Leaning forward when accelerating, back when braking. Drag the back brake into corners to sharpen the angle out.

[jimbo600]

A game called Tourist Trophy coming out on PS2 later this year. It's made from the same folk that did Grand Tourismo, but for bikes. Supposed to be the bizzo. Also TT Superbikes has the counter steering thing down apparently.

[onearmedbandit]

Go to controller options and change the buttons!!

[sAsLEX]

Has anyone ever come across a motorcycle simulation or game that uses counter steering?

What do you mean? Counter steering essentially is only the way you input a force to turn either right or left, so PS2 changes that input to a button for going right and going left.

IF they were doing it right at slow speeds pushing the right button would move you right and then as you got faster there would be a changeover point to where the same button would move you in the other direction.

[erik]

I'll have to check some of those other games out. I've seen the Tourist Trophy trailer, it looks promising but from reading people's comments that have played it, it seems it doesn't have counter steering.

What do you mean? Counter steering essentially is only the way you input a force to turn either right or left, so PS2 changes that input to a button for going right and going left.

IF they were doing it right at slow speeds pushing the right button would move you right and then as you got faster there would be a changeover point to where the same button would move you in the other direction.

What I'm talking about is more than that.

As I understand it:
To turn right, the front wheel steers and moves towards the left, this makes the bike rotate about its centre of mass (the circle thing in the video).
Then the front wheel is turned right/straightened to prevent the bike from falling further over as it goes around the corner.
Finally, the front wheel is turned harder right which makes it move right relative to the bikes centre of mass and the bike rotates to vertical.

The problem with motogp2 is that instead of having the bike pivot about its centre of mass as the front wheel moves beneath it, the bike pivots about the tyres' contact patches and the centre of mass (body of the bike) is thrown from side to side.

This is what I mean by saying motogp2 doesn't have countersteering. It would not be a simple matter of just changing the directions of the buttons because the physics model they've used for the bikes is wrong.

It seems like a fairly fundamental flaw, but I haven't read about any motorcycle games that do it right.
I don't know if it's because of a lack of understanding by the game developers, an attempt to make the games more like all the car racing simulators so that gamers don't find the controls too wierd, or maybe it is too difficult to model the bikes so they use countersteering.

If I knew how to program, I'd probably have a go just to see if it's possible to make a simple countersteering model and what it is like to control it.

[SimJen]

Get Tourist Trophy for the PS2. I just downloaded the US version to play until the official one is released at the start of June. Its from the same guys who made GT4 so is awesome. Its also a lot more difficult than GT4 to control, but can be made simple if you want. Separate buttons for front/rear brakes and rider lean etc.
Do a google search, the graphics are mean, the physics are better
Also has over 100 bikes, from NSR250's to VFR400's to Busa's and Buells.

[sAsLEX]

The problem with motogp2 is that instead of having the bike pivot about its centre of mass as the front wheel moves beneath it, the bike pivots about the tyres' contact patches and the centre of mass (body of the bike) is thrown from side to side.

Maybe its your idea thats wrong, a pivot is essentially fixed is it not? I am sure if we got a bike and hold it still and vertical that when we let go it would pivot about the tire contact patch as the COM moves towards the ground, but it would not pivot about the COM as that would meant the tire would move which it is unlikely to do.

[erik]

Maybe its your idea thats wrong, a pivot is essentially fixed is it not? I am sure if we got a bike and hold it still and vertical that when we let go it would pivot about the tire contact patch as the COM moves towards the ground, but it would not pivot about the COM as that would meant the tire would move which it is unlikely to do.

That is true, but when the bike is moving it's different.
When you turn the handlebars to start a turn (countersteer), the front wheel does move to the side, in the direction it is pointing. The force between the ground and tyre (caused by the tyre turning away from its previous line of travel) pushes the tyre sideways, out from under the bike.

Compare the tyre moving and bike pivoting about its COM to attempting to balance a pole (eg a broom handle) in the palm of your hand.
When the pole starts to fall over to the left, you move your hand to the left and the bottom of the pole moves with your hand. The top doesn't move as quick and the pole pivots about its COM, half way up its length.

[sAsLEX]

That is true, but when the bike is moving it's different.
When you turn the handlebars to start a turn (countersteer), the front wheel does move to the side, in the direction it is pointing. The force between the ground and tyre (caused by the tyre turning away from its previous line of travel) pushes the tyre sideways, out from under the bike.

Compare the tyre moving and bike pivoting about its COM to attempting to balance a pole (eg a broom handle) in the palm of your hand.
When the pole starts to fall over to the left, you move your hand to the left and the bottom of the pole moves with your hand. The top doesn't move as quick and the pole pivots about its COM, half way up its length.

So you are trying to say the tire slides across under the bike as my palm would in the inverted pendulum example you give above?


Is it not really the tire "sliding" across the surface but the angle of steering moving the tire towards the outside of the turn, therefore moving the tires out from under the CoM?

I think what games do is wrong I will endeavour to try explain more in some paint diag.

In the comp one when you do a wee wiggle up the road you lean massivly side to side. on a normaly bike though with a tire warming weave going you kinda go in a straight line and the bike moves around you?!

too early

[sAsLEX]

That is true, but when the bike is moving it's different.
When you turn the handlebars to start a turn (countersteer), the front wheel does move to the side, in the direction it is pointing. The force between the ground and tyre (caused by the tyre turning away from its previous line of travel) pushes the tyre sideways, out from under the bike.

well to be anal, the term counter steer comes from the gyroscopic progression that means a input on the left bar makes you turn to the left, BUT in pushing the bar on the left it is not turning the wheel but leaning in the vertical plane towards the left as the force you input to the bars is transformed 90 degrees around the tire in the direction of rotation. So pushing on the left bar while puling on the right, puts a force on the wheel of tipping the bike over to the left...

[erik]

So you are trying to say the tire slides across under the bike as my palm would in the inverted pendulum example you give above?


Is it not really the tire "sliding" across the surface but the angle of steering moving the tire towards the outside of the turn, therefore moving the tires out from under the CoM?

I'm not saying it "slides", but that it tracks in the direction it is pointing, like you say.

I think what games do is wrong I will endeavour to try explain more in some paint diag.

In the comp one when you do a wee wiggle up the road you lean massivly side to side. on a normaly bike though with a tire warming weave going you kinda go in a straight line and the bike moves around you?!

too early

Yep, I agree with that, your diagram makes sense (except for the sharp angular motion of the rider in the comp version, it should be a bit smoother).
The diagram can be explained by where the bike and rider are pivoting: in the comp version pivoting about the tyre contact patch, in real life pivoting about the COM.

and now I'm late for class...!

[sAsLEX]

your diagram makes sense (except for the sharp angular motion of the rider in the comp version, it should be a bit smoother).

A little exaggerratted to help illustrate the point