Sheer hikoi madness

[Shafted]

Lets ............... REDNECKS.

Mate, you are talking rubbish. A collection of randomly connected prejudice and misrepresentation does not an argument make. The irony is that if you would just slow down and think about it you would see that you are actually arguing for what the hikoi protestors are arguing for - one set of rules for all - that is one of the things that the hikoi is all about - the government has taken it on themselves to withdraw the rights of one section of the population - the right is not to the ownership of the beach or the foreshore or your grandmothers dingy but the right to have your day in court to argue the case.

One of the main reasons that it has got the response that it has is that those who know the history of this place know that much of what this government is doing in the name of justice is exactly what earlier governments have done over the last 160 plus years in the name of protecting the interests of the natives but that systematically shafted them.

Have you read any of the Waitangi Tribunal reports? - they are available on the net - you can see the parallels yourself - they are scary- talk about not learning from history...

[Deano]

Mate, you are talking rubbish. A collection of randomly connected prejudice and misrepresentation does not an argument make. The irony is that if you would just slow down and think about it you would see that you are actually arguing for what the hikoi protestors are arguing for - one set of rules for all - that is one of the things that the hikoi is all about - the government has taken it on themselves to withdraw the rights of one section of the population - the right is not to the ownership of the beach or the foreshore or your grandmothers dingy but the right to have your day in court to argue the case.

One of the main reasons that it has got the response that it has is that those who know the history of this place know that much of what this government is doing in the name of justice is exactly what earlier governments have done over the last 160 plus years in the name of protecting the interests of the natives but that systematically shafted them.

Have you read any of the Waitangi Tribunal reports? - they are available on the net - you can see the parallels yourself - they are scary- talk about not learning from history...

I don't believe my personal experiences here in 2004 are rubbish, but you are welcome to your opinion.

We live in a democracy and the recent swing of political power going to Don Brash (see the polls) would indicate to me that the majority of the population believe he has something to offer in his policies.

NZ is a multi cultural society, and as time goes on the global environment will see people becoming more like one, just like the melting pot song.

Public places like the foreshore should be just that - free for all NZers to use, and as such should be in Govt (and NZ people's) ownership, not one particular group.

[Hoon]

Sorry just need to dispel a few myths that pop up during anti-Maori discussions

(not indigenous people, but then we can't mention the Moriori - can we - and no traey was signed with them).

From http://history-nz.org/moriori.html

"It is sometimes claimed that the Moriori were a race that settled in New Zealand previous to the arrival of ancestors of the Mâori; however it appears that there is no evidence to support this belief."

If the French or Spanish had colonised, they probably would have just walked in and taken EVERYTHING, and no treaty.

Wrong, the Maori would've fought them off just like they did the British. Remember the British didn't win the war, they couldn't defeat the Maori hence the truce. If they had won then they could've taken it all without any treaty but they tried and failed. A truce was agreed on and the treaty is the terms of that truce.

I recall when I was at uni there were many grants available, mainly to Maori.
Im a kiwi, put myself through uni by working part time, and had a $15,000 student loan at the end of it. Why should any other "kiwi" get access to grants simply because of their culture ?

I addressed this in Jackrats Race based privileges thread.

Its no secret that lots of Maoris end up in prison. I read somewhere that it cost $86,000 a year to keep someone in prison. The Govt can either keep forking out $86K pa or they can address the root of the problem. To me it makes perfect sense to give a helping hand in the early stages and turn a potential drain on the economy into a contributing member.

However human nature dictates that all sorts of emotions arise when one gets a bigger slice than the other (like giving 2 children unequal ice creams). I have no idea whether this is due to our competitive nature, primal survival, greed, culture or what (I studied Comp Sci not Psych/Anthro) but this impulse reaction blinds people even if there is a logical reason (say one kid is bigger and needs more ice cream, or maybe he didn't have any breakfast?), it doesn't matter even if there are long term benefits - all that matters is that you get the same amount or he doesn't get it at all.

[Coldkiwi]

Go the All Blacks (except on 20th June)

does that explain why I saw a BRITISH racing green MGF with El DOPA on the number plate while on the coromandel a month ago?

[Deano]

Sorry just need to dispel a few myths that pop up during anti-Maori discussions



From http://history-nz.org/moriori.html

"It is sometimes claimed that the Moriori were a race that settled in New Zealand previous to the arrival of ancestors of the Mâori; however it appears that there is no evidence to support this belief."


Wrong, the Maori would've fought them off just like they did the British. Remember the British didn't win the war, they couldn't defeat the Maori hence the truce. If they had won then they could've taken it all without any treaty but they tried and failed. A truce was agreed on and the treaty is the terms of that truce.



I addressed this in Jackrats Race based privileges thread.

I think if the British could defeat Napoleon, it would have been a matter of time before they defeated the Maori. Just a question of enough force. Weren't there Maori also fighting alongside the British forces as well as amongst themselves ? Maybe if they had a united front, but still not forever.

I read your "sob story", (your words) and I could sing a similar tune about my own life. I made a conscious decision to make something better of my life and paid fully for my education. No handouts here sorry.

Do you advocate a separate judicial, education, health and welfare system as some Maori do also ? Personally I thought apartheid was a bad thing.

Another personal true story - Maori guy was asked to go to the Police station to make a statement, and complained that he had been 'fitted up', by saying things which incriminated him - he said the Police pick on the Maori fella's. Get real - the Police will try to get a prosecution regardless of your culture, and if it means using 'tactics' to get you to confess then they will do it.

Another one - regulation of foodstalls at a public fair, organised by Maori - Maori liaison officer at Council advised me that it would not be 'safe', for the Pakeha Council man to advise her people on food safety.

One set of rules for all.....I don't think so.

[Shafted]

I don't believe my personal experiences here in 2004 are rubbish, but you are welcome to your opinion.

We live in a democracy and the recent swing of political power going to Don Brash (see the polls) would indicate to me that the majority of the population believe he has something to offer in his policies..

Which I am sure you will agree is why the hikoi was such a positive expression of peaceful protest. Whether Brash has any policies is a moot point. Certainly he has hit a vein of public concern that has been largely veered away from for quite a while - and that Helen and her buddies have totally botched up in responding to so that a small fire is now a raging inferno - but the polls are not the same as election day - and that is still a way off yet...

NZ is a multi cultural society, and as time goes on the global environment will see people becoming more like one, just like the melting pot song. ..

...more like one ? more the same? more multicultural? What does that look like? With respect the melting pot song is a long ways away from political realities ..

Public places like the foreshore should be just that - free for all NZers to use, and as such should be in Govt (and NZ people's) ownership, not one particular group ..

Note - the beach is not the foreshore - it is the scaremongers who are talking of the issue as stopping us all going to the beach to fish or swim or whatever - the march was not about taking anything away from you or me ...

Anyways, interesting times, stay upright.

[Deano]

Which I am sure you will agree is why the hikoi was such a positive expression of peaceful protest. Whether Brash has any policies is a moot point. Certainly he has hit a vein of public concern that has been largely veered away from for quite a while - and that Helen and her buddies have totally botched up in responding to so that a small fire is now a raging inferno - but the polls are not the same as election day - and that is still a way off yet...



...more like one ? more the same? more multicultural? What does that look like? With respect the melting pot song is a long ways away from political realities ..



Note - the beach is not the foreshore - it is the scaremongers who are talking of the issue as stopping us all going to the beach to fish or swim or whatever - the march was not about taking anything away from you or me ...

Anyways, interesting times, stay upright.

You too mate - at the end of the day we are all bikers. Politics sux really. Politicians especially.

[James Deuce]

I think if the British could defeat Napoleon, it would have been a matter of time before they defeated the Maori. Just a question of enough force. Weren't there Maori also fighting alongside the British forces as well as amongst themselves ? Maybe if they had a united front, but still not forever.

Bear in mind that Maori used combined tactics, strategic forts, bunkers, and trench warfare well before they were standard practice anywhere. They defeated forces many times the size of their own on all terrains, in all weather, and with a significant negative disparity in available heavy weapons and logistics.

The truce was called because the British were at an economic disadvantage in having to transport troops all the way round the world, and the Maori couldn't afford to loose too many men or they couldn't get crops in for winter - the proverbial bane of agrarian societies who can't afford a standing army, the world over.

Maori are quite right to insist that the British would never have beaten them, because the will to do so was lacking in British politics.

[merv]

The foreshore and sea-bed is basically the bit from high tide level down i.e. its under water a lot of the time. The real issue for all Kiwis is that the Queen's chain was never cast in legislative stone and a check by some officials recently came to the conclusion that much of the waterways and beach are inaccessible except over private land and isn 't it that 1/3 of the foreshore is already in private hands. This is a bugger really and part of what the Maori are on about. The new Bill does nothing to address the stuff that is already in private hands and if the Govt is making sure the Maori can't own it, how come some white guys can. The Govt should have nationalised any land within 20 metres of the foreshore and waterways (over 3m wide) in my view and claimed the Queen's chain. The boundary has to vary as erosion bites in etc, can't be fixed boundaries as they can end up out to sea or in a river. If they had to pay compo, so be it, but me and Motu need access to great riding areas for our dirt bikes.

All credit to Helen and her crowd for buying land in some places to allow public access e.g. Harwoods Hole, but so far I don't think she has done it for dirt bikers, just for people like herself that like tramping and stuff.

Now if only she could just buy off the Dutchman at White Rock.

[Wenier]

Thats a very good point merv and if they cant buy it back they need to make it so that public can access the beach area no matter what cus that really shouldnt b owned by anyone

[MacD]

Sorry just need to dispel a few myths that pop up during anti-Maori discussions
[snip]
Wrong, the Maori would've fought them off just like they did the British. Remember the British didn't win the war, they couldn't defeat the Maori hence the truce. If they had won then they could've taken it all without any treaty but they tried and failed. A truce was agreed on and the treaty is the terms of that truce.

Speaking of dispelling myths...

The Treaty of Waitangi was signed in 1840 before the Land Wars which didn't commence until 1844 in the North and 1860 in Taranaki. The Treaty is not a truce, but a declaration (in the English version) of British sovereignty in exchange for the Maori having guaranteed rights of possession of "exclusive and undisturbed possession of their lands and estates, forests, fisheries and other properties". Of course much debate has raged over whether the words used in the Maori version meant the same as in the English version.

The Land Wars arose later because the treaty was not upheld in many ways by the government of the colony, resulting in land confiscations both by armed force and dubious dealings.

The new Treaty of Waitangi website is a good attempt at providing some background to why the treaty was signed and what went wrong following the treaty, which has lead to the recent treaty settlements.

I suggest it would be quite good reading for people on both sides of this arguement!

[maybe]

Hi guys enough of that hey it's going to be a fine weekend who's riding.......

Me and my mate Murray will be going somewhere tomorrow, don't know where but somewhere, he has a VT1100.

Also those that need gear don't forget auction at motorcycle city tomorrow fromm 1100hrs so be in early to register.

[El Dopa]

does that explain why I saw a BRITISH racing green MGF with El DOPA on the number plate while on the coromandel a month ago?

If that was easter weekend, yeah, that was me. The one with the 'rover japan' sticker on the rear bumper......

Was down in Raglan by coincidence when you lot did the big rideout as well. If anyone sees me out and about, come up and say hello.

[pete376403]

Sorry just need to dispel a few myths that pop up during anti-Maori discussions
Wrong, the Maori would've fought them off just like they did the British. Remember the British didn't win the war, they couldn't defeat the Maori hence the truce. If they had won then they could've taken it all without any treaty but they tried and failed. A truce was agreed on and the treaty is the terms of that truce

Dunno. While it is true the maori were superior guerilla fighters than the british, in the long term I think the brits would have ultimately defeated, even wiped out the maori. Consider the population of maori at the time - a few hundred thousand? Who couldn't be involved in full time war becuase of the necessity to raise food and so on. Weigh that against the population of britain, wales, ireland and scotland. Britain *could* have swamped NZ with soldiers, even if inferior fighters, who had superior firepower, heavy guns, a long, but pretty reliable supply chain. Food could have been imported from Aus, perhaps.
Also consider british pride - at the time they were the worlds superpower, much the same as the usa today - they would not have allowed a small native island to beat them (even though the results of such hubris, eg vietnam, are well known today). Possibly the treaty was considered the best economic solution to something that otherwise could have had enormous expense for not much return (ie a long term war of attrition)
Just my 0.02 worth.

[El Dopa]

we had to put up with serious questions, like "do we have floors in our mud huts", and "how do we cope with the Maori eating our children"! FFS!.

Now that's just downright embarrassing. 'I feel I must apologise for the conduct of my country during your big OE'.

I will stay away from the Southern Bastards (Devon, Hampshire, Sussex, Kent) - horrible people, with small horizons (sorry that's a Generalised Sweeping Statement). It really took a lot of fortitude to remain positive.

If you go again, try to get up in the midlands somewhere. Nottingham for preference. Lots of bikies, lots of great roads, reasonably friendly people, and quite a few bands looking for drummers, too. But avoid Derby like the plague. Anyway......