Question about helmets post-crash

[Crasherfromwayback]

The Polycarbonate helmets transmit less force to the brain in the event of a High G crash. Motorcyclist, as US magazine, conducted a study and subsequent investigation last year that cost them millions in advertising because they found that the cheaper "plastic" helmets were less dangerous to the user than the ultra stiff expensive helmets, mainly because the more expensive helmets transferred unsurvivable G forces to the users head in event of an impact, rather than the entire shell deforming to spread the energy. the cheaper helmets appear to offer better protection through being less stiff.

In certain circumstances yeah, but the test is hardly conclusive in all types of crashes and impacts.
Ask yourself why one of the bigger racing bodies in the States have just banned certain HJC polycarbonate helmets for competition useage.
And I doubt no matter what they're paid, you'll EVER see Rossi etc using one made out of plastic.
They're shit.

[Squeak the Rat]

Ask yourself why one of the bigger racing bodies in the States have just banned certain HJC polycarbonate helmets for competition useage.
And I doubt no matter what they're paid, you'll EVER see Rossi etc using one made out of plastic.
They're shit.

There were two HJC helmets temporarily banned from the LRRS (Loudon Road Race Series) in the states due to a high representation in head injuries over a five race period. HJC are the largest selling helmet in the states, so maybe more riders were wearing them.....

What I find interesting in relation to the article referenced by Jim2 is that one of the two HJC helmets that were banned is SNELL approved (the CL model I believe). If polycarbs are shit, then how did it pass the rigurous SNELL tests? Either the helmet is is good, or the SNELL standard itself is shit......

[James Deuce]

What I find interesting in relation to the article referenced by Jim2 is that one of the two HJC helmets that were banned is SNELL approved (the CL model I believe). If polycarbs are shit, then how did it pass the rigurous SNELL tests? Either the helmet is is good, or the SNELL standard itself is shit......

Therein lies the reason that Motorcyclist no longer have adverts from the two biggest motorcycle helmet manufacturers in their magazine. They both refused to buy advertising in Motorcyclist after the magazine helped fund and publish the report.

After reading the report you can see why the expensive helmets could be a liability in a high energy, single point of impact accident.

[Wolf]

Therein lies the reason that Motorcyclist no longer have adverts from the two biggest motorcycle helmet manufacturers in their magazine. They both refused to buy advertising in Motorcyclist after the magazine helped fund and publish the report.

After reading the report you can see why the expensive helmets could be a liability in a high energy, single point of impact accident.

The same report you linked to was linked in the XT225 forum I frequent and I found it a most interesting read.

It was quite an eye opener seeing the amount of Gs transferred by the various helmets. I'd rather go for one that transfers less force to my noggin than one that is "theoretically stronger" that goes by a metric that deems 300Gs an "acceptable force" to transfer to my head.

Bugger the Snell Foundation and their 300Gs limit. If they worked by a metric of "the less force transferred the better" rather than "do damage that has a five-billion-to-one chance of ever happening (being hit twice at horrific force on exactly the same part of the helmet) and transfer no more than 300Gs (sufficient force to leave you a vegetable)", their rating would have some merit.

Personally I'd rather have my head in a Z1R ZRP-1 than a Scorpion EXO-700 in a crash, any day. It doesn't take a genius to figure that for the same impact getting a "mere" 152 Gs would be better than 211 Gs to the noggin.

[BeakerRAT]

Yep, get the best helmet and safety gear you can afford.

[sunhuntin]

There were two HJC helmets temporarily banned from the LRRS (Loudon Road Race Series) in the states due to a high representation in head injuries over a five race period. HJC are the largest selling helmet in the states, so maybe more riders were wearing them.....

What I find interesting in relation to the article referenced by Jim2 is that one of the two HJC helmets that were banned is SNELL approved (the CL model I believe). If polycarbs are shit, then how did it pass the rigurous SNELL tests? Either the helmet is is good, or the SNELL standard itself is shit......

i ride with an open faced CL. bought it cos i wanted open faced, that was the only one the shop had, plus we convinced them to throw it with the sale of the bike.

[Wolf]

There were two HJC helmets temporarily banned from the LRRS (Loudon Road Race Series) in the states due to a high representation in head injuries over a five race period. HJC are the largest selling helmet in the states, so maybe more riders were wearing them.....

What I find interesting in relation to the article referenced by Jim2 is that one of the two HJC helmets that were banned is SNELL approved (the CL model I believe). If polycarbs are shit, then how did it pass the rigurous SNELL tests? Either the helmet is is good, or the SNELL standard itself is shit......

The Snell Rated helmets they tested:
# Icon Mainframe (Polycarbonate)
# Average: 181 Gs

Icon Alliance (Fibreglass)
# Average: 183 Gs

Scorpion EXO-400 (Polycarbonate)
# Average: 187 Gs

AGV X-R2 (Fibreglass)
# Average: 188 Gs

Arai Tracker GT (Fibreglass)
# Average: 201 Gs

HJC AC-11 (Fibreglass)
# Average: 204 Gs

Scorpion EXO-700 (Fibreglass)
# Average: 211 Gs


Of the Snell approved helmets, two were polycarbonate and both were amongst the lowest transfer of force. The three that transferred the greatest force were all Snell Approved fibreglass helmets.

The best of the lot were the DOT approved polycarbonates:
Z1R ZRP-1 (P)
Average: 152 Gs

Fulmer AFD4 (P)
# Average: 157 Gs

Pep Boys Raider (P)
# Average: 174 Gs

I can't say I'd be happy to experience 152 Gs to the skull, but I'd certainly rather that than over 200Gs.

I think we heed to actually hit the people who set the metric for the Snell tests around the head with 300Gs and see if their successors will also deem it to be "safe".

[Falconer]

when cycle helmets were becoming compolsary. Had a weight swinging down onto a helmet fitted to a force platform. When the helmets were sawn in half through the impact point the foam was very compressed. If you hit it a second time in the same place the force to the head was greater than the first time. A helmet always works better the first time. If the helmet has had a hit buy a new one.

[Edbear]

A helmet always works better the first time.

Bit like me, really...

[Wolf]

I've got to replace my helmet.

Not only does it bear visible marks from where it has fallen to the ground (never been in a bin with it but you drop it, you fuck it) it is at the end of its useable life. I bought it a while after I got my current job and I've bee working there for a little over 5 year. As the "life" is based on date of manufacture, not the purchase date, I'd say it's over 5 years old already.

I'd love to buy the Nolan 102E flip front with the sun visor. It even has the fog insert included in the box (the benefits of buying the more expensive model) but I don't know that I want to spend around $600 every 5 years.

It certainly would be nice from the point of view of having a sun visor I can swing into place when I need it and swing out of the way when it gets dark and being able to put on my glasses without having to slide them through the opening of a standard helmet (mate of mine who wear glasses and own flip-front helmets rave about how great they are).

As I also have to replace boots and gloves and we have to buy full riding gear for strayjuliet, I guess I'll be buying a more modest-priced brain bucket.

After reading the article in Motorcyclist, I will be avoiding Snell rated helmets, which in itself will keep the price down as the Snell Sticker - like the CK or Levis logo - seems to be an excuse for a higher price-tag. Like the CK logo (made in the same Chinese sweat shops as the cheap brands you get in Farmers or the Warehouse) and the Levis brand (thinner denim than my $50 "Tusk" jeans I bought at Industrial Safety) there is no discernible added value in having the Snell sticker. I perceive that (like my Tusk jeans are more durable than Levis) I would be better off with a cheaper DOT-approved helmet than a Snell-approved helmet.

Brand new, at least DOT certified (and what legal helmet isn't at least DOT?) and comfortable for you - that's all that really matters. If you wish to risk taking 200+ Gs to the skull with a Snell helmet, that's your choice. Just so long as the helmet fits properly and doesn't feel like your head's in a vise.

[XP@]

I'd love to buy the Nolan 102E flip front with the sun visor. It even has the fog insert included in the box (the benefits of buying the more expensive model) but I don't know that I want to spend around $600 every 5 years.

Spending that kinda money is not really too bad, think a lid as a motorcycling consumable, like oil.

I was looking at the nolan the other day and it looks a bit noisy. There are a lot of places where the wind can catch. Imagine what it would be like to ride with the sun visor up, at highway speeds this helmet is potentially a pain in the bum.
But it does have fittings for their bluetooth phone / music system which looks cool.

I suspect this lid has been designed for the suites commuting in to london.

If it is the sun visor you like the shubeth C2 lid is nice
http://www.schuberth.com/c2/index3.htm

[James Deuce]

I've installed the visor on my N100E, and there is no increase in noise over standard. All flip front helmets I've tried have been noiser than normal full face helmets.

I wear earplugs 99% of the time (I married with kids - "uh-huh" is the correct response 99% of the time anyway), so it isn't an issue for me.

[Lou Girardin]

I was lucky enough to get a tour of the Nolan factory, right from the forming of polystyrene for the inner shell to the completed helmet.
They even did an impact test on one for me. I'm damn sure I don't want get a bash like that when I bin. Yet it was deemed survivable, at the low end of the acceptable G impact range.
Having seen that, I have no qualms about using a Lexan (polycarbonate) helmet.

[Wolf]

I was lucky enough to get a tour of the Nolan factory, right from the forming of polystyrene for the inner shell to the completed helmet.
They even did an impact test on one for me. I'm damn sure I don't want get a bash like that when I bin. Yet it was deemed survivable, at the low end of the acceptable G impact range.
Having seen that, I have no qualms about using a Lexan (polycarbonate) helmet.

Cheers for that assessment. What model helmet did they hammer?

I have heard some people say that they would never buy a flip front as "the hinge mechanism could drive into your temple and kill you, which is why they never get a Snell sticker".

Frankly that sounds like utter bollocks to me. They would probably fail the Snell test for failing to survive two horrific bashes to precisely the same point on the helmet, which seems to be Snell's current "acid test" - a dubious metric by my reckonning considering real accident data.

If the hinge mechanism were in any way at risk of damaging the temple, the helmet would fail the DOT and CE tests but all the flip fronts pass at least one of those - I suspect by a comfortable margin.

Most real damage is caused by striking the road from a distance up to the height of an average human - bike low-sides and the rider goes down - a downward drop of up to 6 feet tall depending on the height of the bike and rider (a great argument for being a short-arse on a mini chopper ) - slamming his/her head into the pavement. The forward speed is largely immaterial - a factor in how far the rider slides (not a problem given a smooth helmet with a hard outer shell), but not in the initial impact.

Impacting with a stationary object at speed or high-siding into the ground at mach ten are relatively rare accidents. In the cases of those accidents you usually have more to worry about than just a blow to the noggin. High side into the road at speed or drive your head into a lamp post or oncoming car at speed and your neck is likely to seriously let you down, as will that fragile cage of bones around heart and lungs.

The old "if the person sustained sufficient head injuries to die, they would also have sustained other injuries on the rest of their body which would have killed them even if the head injury hadn't." That's pretty much what independant assessments, based on real accidents, have determined about the DOT rating.

Basically, if a DOT helmet fails to protect your skull, you've already done enough damage to the squishy bits of your torso (which are only "protected" by some leather or Cordura and some foam padding and Kevlar) or the bones of your neck (or both) to do yourself in.

Do a head-first into a tree, and you're going to be pretty FUBAR even if the lid does save your life. Fortunately most of the accidents you're likely to be involved in (statistically speaking) you're just going to drop the bike and slide and possibly smack your helmet into the road at roughly the same downward velocity as if you'd just fallen over.

[Wolf]

Spending that kinda money is not really too bad, think a lid as a motorcycling consumable, like oil.

If I spend $600 on oil in the entire life of the motorcycle I'd mean I have a very bad bike or a very good one...

And that C2 does look nice.