Who Likes the Cops?

[scumdog]

scumdog i have a dillema........when i was coming bak to my local country town after looking for a new helmet,i got a speeding tiket in my car as i was wanting to get home to have my new bike dropped off,as you are a motorcyclist too then like i told the bobby go catch some rapists......................................i am a little gutted ,rekon cops would stak higher in my books if they had the old traffic cops and let police do the real stuff.then you wouldnt all be tarred with the same brush.............and yes i know i shoulnd have been speeding .......................................

My answer to 'go catch rapists' types is simply to say I would gladly but you speeding (or whatever) motorists are keeping from doing that.(and rapists speed too! )
Do you feel you should have just been warned? If so why you and not everybody?

To follow on, in a nutshell, you don't like the uniform?

i.e. If traffic guys had black uniforms you would hate them but not the general duties guys who don't do traffic and wear blue? - even if they work at the same base, drive the same cars and got paid the same???.

Bad luck about your ticket, however if I eventually get one I'll just shrug my shoulders and get on with my life, life is too short to fester over crap like a ticket.

[spudchucka]

So why do we need a fitness standard greater than the UK, US or Aust.
Do you think that otherwise fine would-be cops have been rejected because of this?

I don't have a problem with them dropping the fitness standard a little but I wouldn't want to see us take the approach of some US jurisdictions where the entry standard is 2.4 Kms in around 14 minutes. You could power walk it in that time.

The entry level fitness requirement has more to do with the recruit being able to handle the physical demands of the recruit course than it does being physically able to chase and run down offenders.

And yes, I know of a number of people that would have made fine cops if they were able to meet the fitness requirements. The current fitness level is attainable by almost anyone though, it just takes commitment and drive to get there if you haven't been into fitness prior to applying.

[scumdog]

As Spudchucka said: you can always build on your fitness and practice the test - raising an I.Q. is a little harder to do....and they don't hand out practice written tests.

[spudchucka]

Are you saying our cops need to run fast because we can't afford ballistic vests?

How about paying the ones that last 3 - 5 years more? Then we'll know if they're worth it. Even offer a sweetheart super scheme so they can retire in comfort after 20 years or so?
What is needed is experienced cops, not green-arsed recruits filling the vacancies each year.
Although I suspect that a well indoctrinated recruit may write more tickets though.

We do have ballistic vests, the f%&kers weigh about 15 kg and I aint planning on running anywhere when I'm wearing one.

Pay more after 3 - 5 years? Got to agree with you there, if there is some incentive down the track it will motivate cops to stay and advance their careers. Currently it takes about 20 years to reach the top of the pay band for constables. They recognise long service after 14 years, give you a medal and call you a "Senior Constable" but they still don't pay you at the top rate, which is wrong in my opinion.

Super scheme? We have a pretty good one now but if it was made even more attractive then I'm sure that would encourage peoplpe to join and serving cops to stay in the job.

The hierachy has acknowledged that they have a recruitment problem but are still in denial that there is a retention problem. 40 something $K sounds like an attractive propostion to someone aged 17 - 22 after a 19 week training course but to someone aged 30+ it would often mean a pay reduction in order to join the police.

[madboy]

If one of the cops could let me know (either here or by PM) just what a cop does actually earn, and how that changes over say the first 5 years. Is it a straight salary, so $40k-mumblemumble and that's it? Or are there allowances that turn it into $50k-mumblemumble? I understand the time in lieu idea means lots of cops end up with lots of leave that they seldom have time to take, but sometimes get forced into taking. Am I correct in that?

And what's a sergeant worth in terms of $$ and experience/quals to get there?

[spudchucka]

If one of the cops could let me know (either here or by PM) just what a cop does actually earn, and how that changes over say the first 5 years. Is it a straight salary, so $40k-mumblemumble and that's it? Or are there allowances that turn it into $50k-mumblemumble? I understand the time in lieu idea means lots of cops end up with lots of leave that they seldom have time to take, but sometimes get forced into taking. Am I correct in that?

And what's a sergeant worth in terms of $$ and experience/quals to get there?

A recruit earns around $27,000 while training. On graduation they go up to about $43,000, (as I recall, the exact figure might be a bit higher now but its in that area). The top of the pay scale for constables is around $70,000 but the way the graduated steps are it takes about 20 years to get there. You get an annual performance pay increment as long as you keep your training certification current and don't get any adverse reports.

On top of the base salary they pay about another 7% into your superannuation.

There are allowances in some instances, higher duties allowance for constables in acting Sgts roles, out of town allowances for cops that have to work away from their home base, meal allowance if you work a shit load of overtime, plain clothes allowance for CIB, on call allowance for 1, 2 & 3 man stations, AOS & CIB and a field training officer's allowance which is paid to experienced cops who are mentoring newbies. For the joe bloggs cop there aren't any allowances to claim other than the meal allowance claim for overtime.

Overtime isn't paid but accumulates as time off in lieu, (TOIL). We do get a lot of leave and the bosses get on your case if you accumulate more than around 30 days. I'm currently on leave as my boss was a little peaved that I had over 50 days, I've taken a couple of weeks off but I'm still accumulating more leave while I'm on leave.

Senior cops that were being paid the field training officers allowance as a constable have found that when they take promotion to Sergeant they are only a few hundred bucks a year better off than they were as a constable. The salary for a Sgt isn't that great, I don't have the figures in front of me but I can assure you that there isn't a lot of financial incentive there. However the police have now decided that when a constable is promoted to Sgt they will take their FTO allowance with them for a period of time.

To qualify as a Sgt a cop needs to firstly attain permanent appointment, (on completion of their probationary period), complete a Certificate in Contemporary Policing from Victoria University, (two 100 level and two 200 level papers), complete a 100 level management paper from Vic or Massey uni and pass three internal police exams, (practical duties, evidence & statutes). Sgt's jobs are advertised internally in our staff news letter, to get one you have to apply for the job as you would for any job, get short listed, interviewed by a panel and beat whoever else might apply for the job.

[Edbear]

Sorry I'm late.
Nicely put. Bling awarded...
Just because you have the right to be little prick doesn't mean you should be one - or that there is something desirable in being a prick.

Nicely put! Bling awarded! (To both.)

[ManDownUnder]

Are you saying our cops need to run fast because we can't afford ballistic vests?

LOL - No but it's an angle I'll agree with you on. I was thinking in term of sheer numbers of cops available for a serious incident, including the more expensive resources like Eagle etc.

How about paying the ones that last 3 - 5 years more? Then we'll know if they're worth it. Even offer a sweetheart super scheme so they can retire in comfort after 20 years or so?

What is needed is experienced cops, not green-arsed recruits filling the vacancies each year.

Although I suspect that a well indoctrinated recruit may write more tickets though.

Yup - pay 'em more to get them in ther door... and pay them more again for longevity (I would expect promotions etc to take care of that issue in part anyway?)

[scumdog]

Read post#66 and see why I'll just stay in the location and at the rank I am at present.

[Motu]

Do you have to hand in the tips,or can you keep them?

[scumdog]

Do you have to hand in the tips,or can you keep them?

How did you know I was cutting the tips off??

[Squeak the Rat]

So is retention an issue then?

If so, increasing pay won't fix that unless it is substantially under "market rate". Unfortunately market rate is hard to apply here.

It looks like one issue is the incentive to progress through the ranks, but on the other hand I'd imagine we'd only want people motivated by non-monetary reasons to get the top jobs (like power!...no, wait....).

I guess what I'm saying is, give pissed-off people more money and they will stay a bit longer. They will still be pissed off and will leave anyway if that's what they were thinking of doing.

[spudchucka]

Your are right, money isn't and shouldn't be the only incentive to stay in the job. It is an important issue though and I guarantee you that there are tons of people that simply would not do half the stuff we do for the money we are paid. Its an issue that needs to be address.

Having said that though we don't want people joining just because the money is good, its a job that you have to want to do. Most that join the job want to do it, many that leave the job do so because they feel they can no longer do the job that they joined to do, (due to red tape, ring fencing of funds, over represenation of road policing, etc etc) and become frustrated and resentful towards the organisation.

[Indoo]

Having said that though we don't want people joining just because the money is good, its a job that you have to want to do. Most that join the job want to do it, many that leave the job do so because they feel they can no longer do the job that they joined to do, (due to red tape, ring fencing of funds, over represenation of road policing, etc etc) and become frustrated and resentful towards the organisation.

Yep exactly. And just as you don't want people joining for the money you don't want people not joining because the money is bad. It is bad which is why its a bit ironic when people moan about the caliber of cops, you pay them 43k a year thats the same as what road workers get, what do you expect.

The love of the job aspect and joining for the joy of public service becomes slightly jaded when the media constantly tells the public what a terrible job you are doing. Thats despite the fact that you locked up 15 criminals that week, did 10 hours unpaid overtime and came in on your day off to complete a file.

Then theres not only the stress of being in danger when you work because of the under staffing which is a result of the above. But that you can be prosecuted for murder when using force to defend yourself, as Constable A found out. Apparently Police should turn their backs and run when confronted by someone trying to kill them with a baseball bat and golf club.

Really what Labour is doing is nothing more than a PR campaign, they can't recruit enuff cops as is without lowering the standards any further. But at the same time they don't actually want more cops because it will mean more criminals in jail, which is apparently a bad thing.

There is also far to much bureaucracy and following business type aims, like the Police can be privatised into a corporation or something. Entering into agreements with the LTSA to provide a contracted number of hours and 'contacts' aka tickets in return for funding and pleasing the political masters is a prime example.

The primary aim of policing is to fight crime, let cops do just that not be told that they have to sit on xxx road and give out xxx amount of tickets to everyone that exceeds the speed limit. That completely takes away the discretion that defines a good cop.

Police know when speed is excessive and dangerous, they are after all on the road watching the car/bike in question, the middle manager sitting behind his LTSA desk isn't.

Pay good cops more and retain good cops in the organisation, and like spudchucka said give them back discretion and the ability to do there jobs without red tape and business like 'targets'. Labours solution will address nothing and change nothing.

This post is also far too long.

[MattRSK]

I like cops except the ones who think they are GOD