Our future leaders

[Grahameeboy]

I agree Jim2......kids can display different behaviours at home and outside......."but my Jimmy is such a nice boy"

I guess there are some cases where parents behaviour may have an impact on their Kids, however, like you say, you cannot keep and eye on them all the time.

[Lou Girardin]

It's nature, not nurture.
Some serial killers have come from loving family's and some people I know have survived foul childhoods to become responsible adults.
You can be born evil.

[Toast]

I don't believe full blame is to be bestowed upon parents, but I do believe that the parents have a very strong say in the behavioural upbringing of their children and I do believe that in 9 out of 10 cases such as this, The parents are to a degree responsible for their insufficient raising of their children.

And that would be the 1 out of 10, I wasn't talking about. Yep, parents aren't always to blame. But most the time they are.

I don't entirely agree with this.

I've always believed that a person is a product of their inherent leanings, characteristics, and their environment.

Different people are affected differently by the same environment.

A life where material comforts are bountiful, the form of high 'education' that society promotes, etc. may lead a person who values harmony to pursue a 'good' course through life, not hurting others, avoiding conflict.

The same upbringing that JSG mentioned may, where a rebellious or simply unempathetic person is concerned, lead to one of those cases where the kid goes 'off the rails'. The rails here, unfortunately, being the expectations of a stable career, house, wife, 3 kids, etc.

And here's where I say: it really is the parents' fault...all of the time (except in that Omen movie, that was just a bit of bad luck).

They may have been nice people, who never really hurt anyone, maybe just did a bit of insider trading here and there...BUT, they took on one of the highest responsibilities in life...that of bringing in to this world and guiding another life...and in a case like that described above, they cocked up.

The parents had the responsibility to see past the glaze on their child's eyes, to take the time to truly understand him/her. With so much of our collective consciousness placed on image and 'style' these days, it's no fukn wonder there's a lack of empathy.

There's no bright line rules or best practice criteria for parenting. Where there are parents with general wisdom and the ability to show real love, there needn't be either. So often people enter in to a relationship and have a child when they're still lost themselves. They may have success in their careers or be able to feign confidence when they speak (usually called arrogance), but it doesn't mean that they have the ability to take on the responsibility of parenting.

Maybe I'll get mine when I take my turn to raise children. Maybe they'll become shit-head little P dealers with no love for life and nature.

But, before I try, I intend to become something that I believe has the ability to take on such a role. Someone who has the time, energy and care to put in to raising a child, instead of just poviding the money and going through the motions of it...and then wondering 'what went wrong?' and seeking counsel.

[Edbear]

I thought fairly hard about my response to this thread and carefully considered everyone's points. As a father of three grown children, two married and the third about to be, I feel that I do have a little insight into the subject. I am grateful that my son and daughters have grown up to be well adjusted, responsible adults who care for others and deeply for each other as family. They are very different personalities and strong individuals in their own right, raised in a very close, loving environment where self-discipline was the goal where moral guidance was concerned. They were taught that self-discipline and forethought and consideration for the feelings of others avoided problems. We forego the popular philosophy of making money and climbing the social ladder, for the pleasure of spending maximum time with the children while they were young. We spent weekends bushwalking, beachcombing, visiting zoos and museums, travelling, etc. As a Father, I spent hours talking with them, listening to their worries and fears, doing their schoolwork with them, going to school with them when necessary and trying to build in them a belief in themselves that they could achieve whatever they wanted to. They were and are not perfect and still have their faults, but they are genuine, caring and responsible adults which I attribute both to their innate personalities and their upbringing. My point in this little rave, is that while I regret the mistakes I have made when I was a young Dad, for which I am appreciative of the children forgiving me, (your kids will forgive you a lot if they know you really love them!), I also believe that parenting is primarily responsible for the way your kids will turn out. While DAfe's example is perhaps at the extreme end of it, it is sadly all to often the case. While there are exeptions to the rule in the case of good upbringing but bad child, it is not the general rule. Even among my friends and aquaintances, I cringe at times at the way they treat their kids, either too hard, or too soft with no concept of the conseqences. I've seen fathers who were strict disciplinarians without the corresponding warmth and love lose their childrens' respect just as surely as those who were too soft and lacked any form of discipline. I told my children that if they disciplined themselves, they would avoid me disciplining them and that the key to success in all areas of life, was self-discipline. I cannot ever remember smacking my daughters, either, though my hyperactive son got a few good hidings until we discovered what the problem was and were able to treat his condition. It was interesting that even at a young age, once he recognised the medical cause of his problem, he worked with the Drs. and us to control it and he has grown up to be a very hardworking and laid-back young man. (Can I still call him a "young man" at 30?). I'm not trying to hold myself up too high here, as I said I've made my mistakes and appreciate that my family still loves me anyway! I have seen too many examples of bad parenting leading to bad children for it to be arguable, and not just among the "lower socio/economic classes", either! I support charging the parents with the crime in the case of minors, while also acknowledging that in many cases it is ignorance rather than willfulness that leads to these cases - meaning that some parents will genuinely feel they have done their best and won't know where they have gone wrong. I am often frustrated that when I see parents treating their children in ways they will surely regret later, I simply cannot say anything as they won't appreciate my poking my nose in to their family business! I've simply had to say to my wife, "He's going to have real trouble with those boys!", and she has agreed then five or ten years later, the boys are in trouble with the law, left home, and the father is distressed wondering what went wrong. It's sad and one wonders what one can do, but the reality is very little, usually. My 2c.

[Skyryder]

Adult crime=adult fine or time. I'd go along with both. Youth aid that's another joke. Bout time the old borstal system ws bought back into this country where these tosers are removed from the environment that they were bought up in and some serious social retraining performed on these fuckers.

Skyryder

[RantyDave]

My 2c.

Mate, great post but you have _got_ to learn about paragraphs mmmmkay? All I saw was this big block of concrete sitting on the screen.

But, good post. I'm a dad of a four year old girl with number two cooking even as we speak. My advice to parents to be is to get as much condescending claptrap in as possible now, because when your own appear you'll have to shut the hell up and realise how hard it is

Dave

[RantyDave]

And here's where I say: it really is the parents' fault...all of the time.

No man, sorry. Most of the time, I'll believe, but you need to accept that some times really nice parents get really difficult children. It's a pretty scary proposition when you're going to be stuck with these buggers for life.

Dave

[Edbear]

Mate, great post but you have _got_ to learn about paragraphs mmmmkay? All I saw was this big block of concrete sitting on the screen.

But, good post. I'm a dad of a four year old girl with number two cooking even as we speak. My advice to parents to be is to get as much condescending claptrap in as possible now, because when your own appear you'll have to shut the hell up and realise how hard it is

Dave

Oops! Sorry 'bout that, you're quite right! I'll do better next time.

Fatherhood is great, isn't it? Just gotta keep on lovin' 'em. When the hard times in the teen years come along keep bangin' the ol' head against the proverbial brick wall and keep firm hold on belief in yourself and your kids.

Despite what may come out of their mouths at times, they do still love and respect their parents deep inside and take on board what you may tell them. (So be careful what you tell them, they may just believe you!)

With patience and understanding they'll learn to control their raging emotions and confusing thoughts and gain some stability, and they'll be grateful you didn't give up on them when they,(and even you), at times thought it was all hopeless. I can still picture my wife at times throwing up her hands and declaring, "That's it! He's going to end up in gaol!" He didn't of course!

[Phurrball]

That guy was turned into the authorities, I don't know what his punishment was, but it would have been reasonable as the SPCA pressed the charges.
Lucky it wasn't just the department of courts involved or it would have been another slap on the hands (Adult aid?) and another pup the very next day.

I'm with a bit of nature and nurture when it comes to explaining the 'whys' and 'wherefores' of children. Mrs P is becoming something of a child development expert (in an academic sense anyway...none of the real thing for a year or two yet!)

Now for my 'side-topic' rant:

Sorry to dissappoint Dafe, but I've just spent a semester learning all about animals and the law in NZ, and it's not a good time to be an animal. (Not that it ever has been if you're anywhere near humans)

Without boring you to tears, NZ has an animal welfare regime, not an animal rights regime.

Animals have no rights, as they are merely a special class of property. The Animal Welfare Act 1999 sounds good, (and is better than the legislation that preceded it) until you analyse the reality of the enforcement regime...

Some animals are more equal than others, (the law protects 'cute', 'furry' animals that humans like) and the SPCA and MAF (the main enforcement agencies) are WOEFULLY resourced, and legally inept (especially the SPCA, on both these counts). Even the most severe cruelty is usually punished very lightly, and there are very few members of the NZ judiciary willing to explore the sentences available to them to their fullest extent as 'it's only an animal' (one judge even said as much in a decision). Northland is a bit of an exception, but that is only because they have a talented person prosecuting animal welfare cases.

I hope those involved in killing that puppy were dealt to harshly, but my knowledge of the system means I am not confident they were...

There is very little knowledge in the community about how dire NZ's law is at protecting animals, and punishing the offenders. MOst of us are rightfully disgusted and outraged when we hear of cases like this...unfortunately most of us blithely sit back and assume that offenders get their just desserts. The truth is, that unless a HUMAN PROPERTY interest is severly injured by the harm or destruction to the animal, little will happen to the offender. The animal itself is worth very, very little in its own right in the eyes of our current legal regime.

A depressing scenario overall. Doing the Animals and the Law paper has been an eye opener for me, and it's been interesting to be involved in a NZ first (no one has offerred such a paper before).

[Toast]

No man, sorry. Most of the time, I'll believe, but you need to accept that some times really nice parents get really difficult children. It's a pretty scary proposition when you're going to be stuck with these buggers for life.

Dave

You clearly didn't read my post correctly...or I didn't explain my intent correctly...either way...

I said that parents can be good people, and be nice...but that doesn't mean that they are well balanced enough, or have the requisite ability to understand and empathise with the child at a level that can deal with the many complex emotions that can develop within the human mind.

Like I said, there's no best practice solution...just being 'nice', is not enough. Wisdom helps here, and from what I see around me, many people should judge themselves a bit more harshly before becoming a parent.

[iwilde]

Adult crime=adult fine or time. I'd go along with both. Youth aid that's another joke. Bout time the old borstal system ws bought back into this country where these tosers are removed from the environment that they were bought up in and some serious social retraining performed on these fuckers.

Skyryder

For once I agree with you. How about what they did in Singapore with the yank kid that spray painted a wall? I bet after the caning he forgot all about being a "street artist"

[Macktheknife]

many people should judge themselves a bit more harshly before becoming a parent.

I agree, BUT I notice that an awful lot of people who become parents are genuinely incapable of accurately judging their skills in any area, never mind as parents, especially when they dont know what they are getting into.

The Nature Vs Nurture debate rages on without respite, I personally believe the truth lies in both having a strong influence. However neither is able to be identified as the strongest influence overall, but in the specifics of each case it may be perceived.

I acknowledge the people on ths site who have far more experience than I do in this field but also note that in my limited experience, those who are prepared to take more time and consider the long term impact of what and how they teach their children, generally get better results. And by that I mean, mentally/emotionally stronger, more well balanced, socially responsible children who grow into damn good people. I only hope to do as well.

I think it is also worth mentioning that most people become parents without realising just what a tremendously complex and difficult thing it is to do, and even more so to do well. It is just as well there is no qualification to become a parent, because if there was, we would probably die out as a race in a pretty short time.

I think in the case here, there is much the parents could do better, there is also a great deal that should be done by and for these kids. Starting with a course in understanding consequences. The one thing that physical punishment provides is a very immediate feedback in learning that poor choices have unpleasant consequences, this is a great life lesson. What have we as a society taught these kids? Apparently, they have learned that it is ok to do this stuff and not care, I would suggest a return to the old methods would work really well here. But only if it was followed up with the learning they haven't had.

Or we could just say the hell with it and kill them as they have demonstrated signs of sociopathic tendencies. (kidding)
Oh regarding the puppy thing... shoot the prick!
My 3c worth.

[Winston001]

Now for my 'side-topic' rant:

I've just spent a semester learning all about animals and the law in NZ, and it's not a good time to be an animal. (Not that it ever has been if you're anywhere near humans)

Without boring you to tears, NZ has an animal welfare regime, not an animal rights regime.

Animals have no rights, as they are merely a special class of property. The Animal Welfare Act 1999 sounds good, (and is better than the legislation that preceded it) until you analyse the reality of the enforcement regime...

Some animals are more equal than others, (the law protects 'cute', 'furry' animals that humans like) and the SPCA and MAF (the main enforcement agencies) are WOEFULLY resourced, and legally inept (especially the SPCA, on both these counts). Even the most severe cruelty is usually punished very lightly, and there are very few members of the NZ judiciary willing to explore the sentences available to them to their fullest extent as 'it's only an animal' (one judge even said as much in a decision).

The animal itself is worth very, very little in its own right in the eyes of our current legal regime.

A depressing scenario overall. Doing the Animals and the Law paper has been an eye opener for me, and it's been interesting to be involved in a NZ first (no one has offerred such a paper before).

Just wanted to recognise your post. Good stuff, it probably deserves a separate thread at another time. I understand there is a specialist animal rights lawyer in Auckland now. Is he your lecturer?

[Winston001]

The one thing that physical punishment provides is a very immediate feedback in learning that poor choices have unpleasant consequences, this is a great life lesson. What have we as a society taught these kids? Apparently, they have learned that it is ok to do this stuff and not care, I would suggest a return to the old methods would work really well here.

Good post and sorry to cut it up.

I'm anti-smacking. Why? Because of the pricks who can't/won't control their own violence. This is a wealthy, educated, first-world nation, yet kids here are bashed to death monthly. Parents need to face the ordinary law that any assault must be explainable, not excused 'cos its a kid who got the bash.

I grew up under the (rare) threat of a dog collar around my legs or backside. We got the strap at school. Caned later on.

And now I have to go to a seedy motel and pay someone to do it Life is so unfair.

Anyway, I have preteen children and yes, when they were small there were times they were smacked. I don't have a problem with that because an immediate shock is a fast way to send a message. Most parents can be trusted with that judgement.

But the problem is that even little kids can learn to put up with physical violence when it happens often enough. And they use it on others because they've learned it is the right thing to do - usually to smaller children and animals.

The other thing is that soon enough, physical punishment stops being effective. The bad kids at school who were often strapped, went on to regular canings later. They didn't become "good" kids. In fact for some, what
they got at home was a damn sight worse. So hitting kids at school doesn't send a good message.

This is difficult to say on a site like Kiwibiker but my parenting experience is that Love is the best answer. If you look at your family with love and kindness, indeed try to look at everyone like that, then problems become manageable and even disappear. I need to say that it is damned hard but it works.

[Indiana_Jones]

Right tie those pricks down onto the m-way and we'll drop shit on them. Cunts.

-Indy