New Police Stats.

[spudchucka]

You ARE wrong - the total road toll HAS gone up but not by anywhere near the percentage/amount that vehicle numbers and km driven have gone up, plus if you don't like getting a speeding ticket - DON'T SPEED!!! it's that simple!

Stats are misleading - everyone with half a brain nows this but they still use them to push their own particular barrow. This is true no matter which side of an argument you sit. Bottom line - don't take stats as being gospel.

[spudchucka]

Bloody interesting the huge jump in 1973.

Was that the year they dropped the open road speed limit to 80km/r due to the oil crisis?

Actually, there was a huge jump in motorcycle deaths that year compared to other deaths.

Wouldn't have anything to do with the availability of a particular 2-stroke Japanese triple would it?

I'm just taking a punt here but when did those triple Kwaka's come out, the ones that went like shit but wouldn't turn? 1973??

[spudchucka]

Dissagree with you mate, the safety of cars has increased at such a pace that not only is crash protection through crumple zones, airbags and pyrotechnic pretensioners and other such devices been saving lives, but advances in other areas have seen handling stopping and all other aspects of car improve.

Watch Top Gear and you will see alot of modern sport cars are getting near 1g of lateral grip, through tyres suspension adn electronic wizardry. How many car used to achieve this, better grip and handling reduces the probabilty of you losing control( other than if your a plonker and crash off a straight piece of road, or drive beyond your vision and get sprung by things mid corner!).
I always compare the difference between the cars I have had ( 83 sunny 1.3lt, 91 levin GT apex) I feel much safer in the newer car due to above mention things. Its legal for any car reg/wf to go the open road speed and yet in some this is alot more dangerous than others.

The speed limit has been at one level for a while now and yet the quality of some/most of the vehicles on the road has increased! Maybe this is why there is a worlwide decreasing road toll trend! rather than the targeting of speeders

Why do arguements on this issue always tend to be so black & white?? Surely the improvement in vehicle saftey standards, the reduction in open road speeds through HP enforcement, better roads etc etc have all had an impact in the overall reduction of the road toll. The important thing is that on average it is improving, despite the increasing number of vehicles and untrained drivers on our roads. Quite remarkable in my opinion.

[rodgerd]

reducing violent crime, theft, burglary and home fricken invasions!!!!!

I'll say it again: are you more likely to be injured in violent crime, home invasions, or road crashes?

[rodgerd]

2 - Oh yeah, real classy. Play the emotion card! Whoooo, that's real constructive...Hey right back at ya: why don't you repeat that fricken mantra to yourself next time some pricks break into your home, nick your TV and beat up the missus while you're out...then you can sit around and jerk off while you wait for the cops who never show up.

For someone who claims to dislike lies, generalisations, and missing the point, you seem awfully keen to avoid answering the question: which is more likely? The injury/death in a road smash, or the home invaders?

[rodgerd]

The important thing is that on average it is improving, despite the increasing number of vehicles and untrained drivers on our roads. Quite remarkable in my opinion.

An increasing number of untrained drivers? If anything, the incentives for new drivers to do advanced driver training/defensive driving/et al probably mean there are fewer untrained drivers, as a proportion of the total, than there were 20 years ago, when the cop who drank with your dad would give you a license.

[spudchucka]

An increasing number of untrained drivers? If anything, the incentives for new drivers to do advanced driver training/defensive driving/et al probably mean there are fewer untrained drivers, as a proportion of the total, than there were 20 years ago, when the cop who drank with your dad would give you a license.

I think there is pretty much no training for most new drivers and this has been the case for a long time. Defensive driving courses are a load of old wank, (I've done one), advanced driver training would be desirable but only when the driver is at a stage beyond that of the average learner. My point in relation to untrained drivers is that it is far too easy to get a licence in this country and there are far too many cheap, high performance cars available to what are essentially "untrained drivers", (what young fellas these days are content learning to drive in a Toyota Corolla or such. They all want the Evo or WRX and there is plenty of finance available for them to get it). This situation to me is just a recipe for road chaos

[Drunken Monkey]

For someone who claims to dislike lies, generalisations, and missing the point, you seem awfully keen to avoid answering the question: which is more likely? The injury/death in a road smash, or the home invaders?

FFS you can't ask me a question then post immediately after and accuse me of not coming to the party! If you read earlier, the question was posted in a rhetoric manner, not unlike my own. I'm not expecting Indo to justify himself further - he has a right to his opinions and observations and if he's a man of principle he'll probably stick to his guns. You, on the other hand, are a snake.



And to answer your question - It's all down to a matter of numbers. There a millions of 'driver hours' out there, and people make mistakes. Accidents happen, and some injuries and loss of life are unavoidable NO MATTER WHAT WE TRY TO AVOID IT. There is an element of risk we all assume when we get on the road - hell, even when we cross the road.
Home invasions, assaults, 'etc' are inexcusable acts commited by true scum of the earth.
So I don't give a flying fart which is more likely to result in an injury or death: I want more community policing and less _blind_, excessive enforcement of some magic 11km/h over the speed limit instant death point, hidden behind a web of blatant lies and misinformation.

[marty]

COMMUNITY POLICING???????????



that went out about 5 years ago. they used to teach it at college, but it didn't make enough money......

[merv]

I'm just taking a punt here but when did those triple Kwaka's come out, the ones that went like shit but wouldn't turn? 1973??

I already talked about this on a previous page. The original MachIII hit NZ around late 1970 i.e. a couple of years before the start of the '73 crash season. However, given the relative cost of things they weren't exactly sold in huge numbers so I doubt they were responsible for any huge rise in stats. The real issue will have been I am sure that many young guys got into bikes then and were crashing their T250s, CB350s and many things cheaper and smaller as well including trail bikes which were very much the go then.

[Drunken Monkey]

COMMUNITY POLICING???????????



that went out about 5 years ago. they used to teach it at college, but it didn't make enough money......

D-f'n-uh! - My point exactly! Proper Policing is not about making money. Running ticket fatories is.
So in effect you have just gone back on your own point of view? You previously used your accident scene experience to side with the proponents of blind speed enforcement, now you dare to laugh at me and tell me community policing is pants because it doesn't make any money? I'm not wasting my time any further with a circular discussion.

[riffer]

I'm just taking a punt here but when did those triple Kwaka's come out, the ones that went like shit but wouldn't turn? 1973??

Yeah Spud, that was my first thought. They came out in 1969, which made me think they might have been hitting the 2nd hand market around then.

My old neighbour has a concourse one. I've always thought it might be fun to try. He has a ZX-12 and a GT750 turbo as well, and said the H2 was the trickiest to ride due to its interesting cornering.

[spudchucka]

D-f'n-uh! - My point exactly! Proper Policing is not about making money. Running ticket fatories is.
So in effect you have just gone back on your own point of view? You previously used your accident scene experience to side with the proponents of blind speed enforcement, now you dare to laugh at me and tell me community policing is pants because it doesn't make any money? I'm not wasting my time any further with a circular discussion.

There are still actually plenty of Community Police stations operating. However the work they do tends to be mostly PR - feelgood type stuff like school and old folks home visits. They do a lot of good work in terms of educating the public in crime prevention matters but more of them won't help catch more burglers. What is needed is more front line general duties cops working 24 / 7 out on the street keeping a lid on their local trash can. A strong and effective police force working on shutting down criminals may not make much for the Govt but it sure as hell can save a shit load of money for the community by reducing the effects of crime. What we need is a Govt with some balls to make policing a priority, cough up the money needed to do the job properly and to keep the criminals in jail where they belong.

[Drunken Monkey]

There are still actually plenty of Community Police stations operating. However the work they do tends to be mostlt PR - feelgood type stuff like school and old folks home visits. They do a lot of good work in terms of educating the public in crime prevention matters but more of them won't help catch more burglers. What is needed is more front line general duties cops working 24 / 7 out on the street keeping a lid on their local trash can.

Ta for clearing up the technical differences in the departments. I was trying to say 'not' Highway Patrol.

A strong and effective police force working on shutting down criminals may not make much for the Govt but it sure as hell can save a shit load of money for the community by reducing the effects of crime. What we need is a Govt with some balls to make policing a priority, cough up the money needed to do the job properly and to keep the criminals in jail where they belong

You've got my vote.

[Lou Girardin]

Indo, I'll choose option 3, it worked well for many decades. especially from 1984 till 2000 when the decline in the road toll was reversed with the advent of 'rigid enforcement'. A side benefit of this would be a reversal in the decline in public approval of the Police, now facing 66% approval instead of 90% plus as it used to be. They haven't even made the top 5 trusted professions in the latest Readers Digest poll.
As for a wish list; this is what I'd like to see;
Traffic enforcement to be carried out by a separately funded body whether part of the Police or not.
Restore cops discretion, do away with ticket quotas.
Remove roadside licence suspension, this should be the provence of a court. Power of arrest will suffice if a driver needs to be removed from the road. Then the facts of the matter can be tested quickly by a court.
Replace speed cameras with humans.
Have speed limits reflect the risk factor of given roads. Eg. higher limits for good, less travelled roads; lower, stricter limits for high risk areas such as school zones, shopping areas.
Heavier enforcement of intersection and vehicle positioning offences.
More bikes used in enforcement.
Tougher driving tests with at least 15-20 hours professional instruction required.
Better qualified and trained driver testers run by a Govt. agency, not a private company. ( An ex-teacher with 3 days training does not a tester make.)
A road safety body that utilises the best research available, not just that which fits their Political masters wishes. ( Monash University)
10 yearly retesting at licence renewal for all.

The pro-police camp have made a lot of personal attacks, but have not come up with figures to substantiate their arguments. Tell us, in terms of fatalities per 10,000 vehicles and per 100,000 km's, how the road toll has improved since 2000 til now.

Spuds argument is self defeating; more, extremely well funded, traffic cops haven't lowered the road toll, yet more general duties cops are going to lower the crime rate. How?
They need to think quality, not quantity.

Now, I am a whinger, whiner, hater in some peoples eyes. Yet, I'm in good company; Dr. Alan Wilkinson, whose research has been agreed with by the University of Canberra, Prof. John Bailey; whose, politically incorrect, but accurate research has been ignored by Govts for 20+ years. And all the others, Graeme Barlow, Mark Petch and everyone who believes that the current policies are more about income than saving lives. If it wasn't, why are local bodies greedily eyeing speed camera revenue. Waitakere City now want to run their own speed camera operation. Only to save lives of course.
But they don't want to have to fund a full Traffic dept. though.