F3 Rules, what ya all reckon?

[Shaun]

This is a copy of my email to Vicki @ mnz regarding the new proposed rule changes for the F3 class

Hi Vicki

I am writing to you concerning the proposed rule changes for the F3 class.

My input is relevant to the 650 twin only.

1) Engine specs. I believe the proposed rule of std motor to be very good, but will create a protest scenario, as people do cheat!

2) Front forks

I believe that this rule should be changed to read

Front forks

Can be replaced with any forks and tripple clamps- THE REASON

With the Sv650 Suzuki, the forks offer NO ability to change any settings on them, this in theory makes the bike a potentially bad/dangerous bike to ride!

Other twin Brands, now come out with upside down forks that are fully adjustable, making racing a lot safer.

THE BENEFIT TO THIS RULE

F3, has long been considered the learning class of NZ racing, a major part of training in racing, is learning how to adjust your suspension, with the new proposed rule change, there will be nothing that a rider/s can learn about machine set up, this is one of the most important things a rider needs to learn to go forward as a rider.

Exhaust

The proposed rule change allows for the muffler only to be changed on an Sv 650 bike.

Unfortunately the SV does not have a bolt on muffler! so if this rule was to go ahead, it would mean people would have to chop there original muffler off, have a bracket welded on to the original exhaust system, and then have to buy an aftermarket muffler, Approx $500 just spent, apart from the fact that the original system is now no good because the muffler had to be chopped off. Replacement cost? over $1000.

ECU Blackbox IGN

It reads that this can be changed! But no mention of the use of power commanders for fuel mixture?

If the exhaust is allowed to be changed, it would be in the best interests of the competitor/s for safety and cost reasons to allow the use of a power commander on these bikes, the fuel mixture is set on these bikes to work with the std exhaust system, so with No powercommander, these bikes will not be performing as they are supposed to, which could lead to engine failures, as well as injuries!



Having said all that, F3 is a formula class, the last formula class in New Zealand's racing, it is the cheapest class to start in?

If we start to make the rules so defined, could this not stop a lot of people from getting started in the first place, take a good look at the club scene, there are heaps of bikes in the F3 field at the moment that would need to be sold by the end of next season to cater for the proposed rule changes, and who is going to buy these bikes? No one, as there is no where to race them, and how do all those riders with those modified bikes buy another without any buyers for there bikes?

So Potentially, I see that with these proposed rule changes, we may be digging a bigger hole.

Thankyou to Paul and MNZ for doing the work you do for our sport.






With Regards
Shaun Harris
Moto-Dynamix
PO BOX 8252
New Plymouth
M/B 027-2559143

[cowpoos]

good points shaun......ummm......has change my way of thinking....
The only butt I have is how much ahead the SV's are compared to the traditional F3 bikes...the 400's etc....take a exceptional rider with alot of $$$ spent on the machine to match a sv....and then it won't be as easy to ride....
and as for cost....what would a compeditive SV 650 cost to build ready for racing in F3? how does it compare to F2?

[Shaun]

good points shaun......ummm......has change my way of thinking....
The only butt I have is how much ahead the SV's are compared to the traditional F3 bikes...the 400's etc..

The 400's are a thing of the past anyways now, the twins are taking over


..take a exceptional rider with alot of $$$ spent on the machine to match a sv....and then it won't be as easy to ride....

A very good 400 bored out with all the fruit would still be more than competitive with an SV with a std motor

and as for cost....what would a compeditive SV 650 cost to build ready for racing in F3?

4-4.5K on top off bike purchase will get you

K4/K5 GSXR complete front end
Ohlins rear shock
Footrest kits
Fairings
Race pipe
power commander


how does it compare to F2?

F2 is for the club scene only, there is no F2 class in the NZ champs any more

[cowpoos]

F2 is for the club scene only, there is no F2 class in the NZ champs any more

sorry ment sports production class.....and yeah I suppose thats not bad for a compeditive bike....

[mikey]

hey poo hate
can i bring my dog over to your place an set him onto some rabbits / hares / triangle head looking staffies
i feel bad setting him onto the nieghrbourhood cats an i got told off yesterday letting him loose in rimutaka park casue apparently dobermans eat cute little kiwis


editttt
wooooooooooops wrong threadanywho
basically your saying that even though f3 is a entry level class, f3 should be about whose prepared/got the most dollars to spend on a sv650 shaun?
i guess thats what racing is about for the majority really,but like you said ITS A ENTREE LEVEL CLASS.
if youve got more money then skill you should be in clubmans, not beating someone in f3 casue your on a machine thats 10+ years newer with another 20HP....
just the lowly opinion of a slow track rider who is currently in clubmans on a championship winning bike....

[cowpoos]

hey poo hate
can i bring my dog over to your place an set him onto some rabbits / hares / triangle head looking staffies
i feel bad setting him onto the nieghrbourhood cats an i got told off yesterday letting him loose in rimutaka park casue apparently dobermans dont like cute little kiwis

errr....no....I don't like your girlfriend

[Shaun]

hey poo hate
can i bring my dog over to your place an set him onto some rabbits / hares / triangle head looking staffies
i feel bad setting him onto the nieghrbourhood cats an i got told off yesterday letting him loose in rimutaka park casue apparently dobermans eat cute little kiwis


editttt
wooooooooooops wrong threadanywho
basically your saying that even though f3 is a entry level class, f3 should be about whose prepared/got the most dollars to spend on a sv650 shaun?
i guess thats what racing is about for the majority really,but like you said ITS A ENTREE LEVEL CLASS.
if youve got more money then skill you should be in clubmans, not beating someone in f3 casue your on a machine thats 10+ years newer with another 20HP....
just the lowly opinion of a slow track rider who is currently in clubmans on a championship winning bike....

Mikey, stay off the drugs mate, and have someone else read engrish for you LOL

No, Re Read what I said Mikey, my opinion was based on rider safety and rider training, and the reason behind the F3 class in the first place

[sAsLEX]

F2 is for the club scene only, there is no F2 class in the NZ champs any more

So how much on top of the say 17k for a new 600 to get competitive in 600 SS?

[Shaun]

So how much on top of the say 17k for a new 600 to get competitive in 600 SS?

Fork KIt $ 2000 approx
Shock $ 1800 approx
Damper $ 500 approx
fairings $ 900 approx
Braided lines $ 100 approx
ECU $ 1800 approx
Pipe $ 1800 approx
Footrests $ 500 approx

+ + + +Kiss 10K goodbye

And after that, the bike is still not competitive in Australia'n ss600 racing

[mikey]

No, Re Read what I said Mikey, my opinion was based on rider safety and rider training, and the reason behind the F3 class in the first place

nah sorry i only skim read stuff on here. an find that typing quick wit hproper diction is slow, an time is money, or not really. anyway

1) Engine specs. I believe the proposed rule of std motor to be very good, but will create a protest scenario, as people do cheat!

not hundred percent sure whether your for or against this rule????

2) Front forks
I believe that this rule should be changed to read
Front forks
Can be replaced with any forks and tripple clamps- THE REASON
With the Sv650 Suzuki, the forks offer NO ability to change any settings on them, this in theory makes the bike a potentially bad/dangerous bike to ride!
Other twin Brands, now come out with upside down forks that are fully adjustable, making racing a lot safer.
THE BENEFIT TO THIS RULE
F3, has long been considered the learning class of NZ racing, a major part of training in racing, is learning how to adjust your suspension, with the new proposed rule change, there will be nothing that a rider/s can learn about machine set up, this is one of the most important things a rider needs to learn to go forward as a rider.

old 400s dont have a lot of adjustment on them either, and 10+yr newer forks should out handle or the designers should be shot. (specualtion here, stnad to be corrected) so there isnt really much of an advantage for the older bikes in the the learning to adjust your suspension type thing. and who adjusts there own suspension anyway?

Exhaust
The proposed rule change allows for the muffler only to be changed on an Sv 650 bike.
Unfortunately the SV does not have a bolt on muffler! so if this rule was to go ahead, it would mean people would have to chop there original muffler off, have a bracket welded on to the original exhaust system, and then have to buy an aftermarket muffler, Approx $500 just spent, apart from the fact that the original system is now no good because the muffler had to be chopped off. Replacement cost? over $1000.
ECU Blackbox IGN
It reads that this can be changed! But no mention of the use of power commanders for fuel mixture?
If the exhaust is allowed to be changed, it would be in the best interests of the competitor/s for safety and cost reasons to allow the use of a power commander on these bikes, the fuel mixture is set on these bikes to work with the std exhaust system, so with No powercommander, these bikes will not be performing as they are supposed to, which could lead to engine failures, as well as injuries!

if the stock pipe is on then you wont need a power commander!!!
and when resellign the bike why do you need to go back to a stock muffler and lose a thousand? trying to hide the fact the bike wasnt raced or what? leave the exhaust on. adds value.
sv650's have a big enough advantage already.... do the Rich affluent bourgeoisie need performance exhausts? performance exhaust equal need of more money tuning/power commadner etc, not something lowly bottom dwelling zxr/cbr/rgv owning proliterait can afford
slightly a bit more out of my depth on this one

Having said all that, F3 is a formula class, the last formula class in New Zealand's racing, it is the cheapest class to start in?

not sure if you actually think its cheap to get into, or cheap class to win? strange way of looking at it if its the latter! and if the sv650's stay as current it will put potential new racers off who want to race, as thier 2000 dollar race bike will not keep up with the modified 650s.

If we start to make the rules so defined, could this not stop a lot of people from getting started in the first place, take a good look at the club scene, there are heaps of bikes in the F3 field at the moment that would need to be sold by the end of next season to cater for the proposed rule changes, and who is going to buy these bikes? No one, as there is no where to race them, and how do all those riders with those modified bikes buy another without any buyers for there bikes?

the only bikes that need to changed back to meet the proposed rules would be the sv650 burglars..... (in your interest) if the riders dont want to change them back they have plenty of other classes to race in. glen williams does alright on his old sv650 in f2. if they want to they can sell there bikes. sv650's are girls bikes anyway, and there a lots of girls out there without them waiting for the step up.....

So Potentially, I see that with these proposed rule changes, we may be digging a bigger hole.

i see the proposed rules that you have brought up as being GOOD FAIR JUST bla bla bla.
i have tried to present a logical view as to why this "loop hole into burgling f3" should be closed, . not sure if you stil have a sv650 in your race team, but if you do i can see why you'd be a little upset if the proposed rules came in.

i suggest a f2.5 class for 650 twins, hell, why not make it a 750 twin class cause I'm sure a few might not be running exactly 648cc.....or another name could be Fb for Formula bourgeoisie, for those with a bit more money (or someone who has access) than the average f3 400cc4stroke 250cc2stroke race bike owner.

[Shaun]

Have a nice day mate

[Two Smoker]

I definately think that engine modifications should be restricted on the SV's... But i dont see why the suspension should be restricted... Pretty much agree with you there Shaun...

I think these rules are trying to increase the numbers at National level... At Club level, F3 is awesome with huge number and close racing no matter what bike you are running... I think its trying to restrict Terry, Andy, Jason and (previously) Derek who are awesome guys and excellent riders, but spend a fuckload of money on their bikes...

But in saying that, i could get into the top 8 with my $2000 bike that i spent about $300 fixing...

[sAsLEX]

Fork KIt $ 2000 approx
Shock $ 1800 approx
Damper $ 500 approx
fairings $ 900 approx
Braided lines $ 100 approx
ECU $ 1800 approx
Pipe $ 1800 approx
Footrests $ 500 approx

+ + + +Kiss 10K goodbye

And after that, the bike is still not competitive in Australia'n ss600 racing

Ouch a bit more than what I suspected for a production based class.

[Hillbilly]

The only other 650 V-tiwns both share basically the same engine as the SV-650. Namely the Cagiva Raptor 650, which is a lotta $$$$, and the Hyosung GT650R, which is a non-contender because of it's 195kg. That twin spar teel frame weighs a ton compared to the aluminium frame of the SV.

A viable alternative which may need little work for a reasonable price could be the Honda RVF400.

BTW, here in Aussie, Suzuki are selling the SV-650 to racers for around $7,200 AUD! Must have a valid competittion licecnce and prove that's for the track.

[TonyB]

1) Engine specs. I believe the proposed rule of std motor to be very good, but will create a protest scenario, as people do cheat!

Won't it be fairly obvious (and easier to police) if someone cheats? If you've got two or three SV's in a race and one of them has clearly got a HP advantage then it's highly likely that they've been modifying the engine. If however engine mods are allowed and one bike is faster, then its harder to prove they're cheating- maybe they just did a better job.