F3 Rules, what ya all reckon?

[Hillbilly]

ER um mate its $350 aud plus the price of track day entry--around $500 aud a day -with a tyre contingency so if ya shag a set of tyres they can charge ya.
The trumbys are FERRRY FERRY NOICE TO RIDE MIND YOU

I got that wrong! Here are the details and prices etc:

http://www.easterncreekridedays.com....tent/view/26/1

http://www.easterncreekridedays.com....tent/view/25/1

[Quasievil]

I say let the SV650 class do what they want, whats the difference, we never see them anyway after the first lap, they are gone burger!!!
650 will be the natural progression once all the 400cc crap out, these 400 bikes are getting old, it suits me fine to have some experienced 650 mechanics out there for me to buy a set up bike from, infact its great, the SV650 guys like Shaun are ironing out all the issues and setup problems for me , so when I get one, it will be basically off the shelf ........perfect!!

Next year Im getting one from Shaun for sure !!!

[slowpoke]

Why is everyone getting all bent outta shape about keeping 20 year old 400's competitive with SV's at NATIONAL level? Why not 250 two strokes? Why not 750 two valver's? Why 400's in particular?
It's like trying to keep older 750's competitive with new 1000's when they changed the superbike capacity's. It all seems almost farcical.
We all have to change with the times so if you want to stay competive in racing you stay on reasonably current machinery, as has been they way since Jesus raced the emperor Tiberius, lost, and was consequently crucified.
Remember we are talking about NATIONAL level racing. Surely at this level you should expect to see the cream of the crop both in riders and/or machinery rise to the surface.
Personally I don't see it as being appropriate to hold back newer bikes to cater for obsolete machinery.

If we accept that we shouldn't stop the march of time then we get down to the question of standard-ish bikes vs modded bikes and then we get into the murky area of what the class is all about. As per the MNZ ruling regarding arseholes they have also deemed that all racers must also have an opinion. The good and bad thing about opinions is that none of them are right or wrong.

In response (finally!)to Shaun's email (good on you for making the effort to get involved) I reckon it makes sense to allow a full aftermarket exhaust system, given the cost of replacing the OEM anchor.
While it does add to the cost, I reckon it's also a good learning tool to allow racers to fettle the suspension at both ends. It would also be pretty difficult to police modded suspension if it looks standard externally.
As Shaun says, it's also difficult to police the "no engine mods" rule. Frosty brought up the interesting idea of HP limit/engine sealing which sounds good but then you need a single dedicated dyno that all the bikes would have to be run on at similar atmospheric conditions/altitude (or tricky compensations applied).
The only way around it that I can see would be to fit inlet restrictors. It's easy to police and would at least ensure that the bikes are ballpark equal. You could even compensate for suspension mods by making bikes with gixxer front ends (or the like) have a slightly smaller restrictor, if you wanted to go that far.

[212-Motorsport]

Why cant we just put all the hot rodded f3 bikes into a class of there own and keep the basic and very standard sv 650's and 400's ete in f3

Or even Have a Standard Sv,er6n,hyosung gt650 class, Because I Beleive We have enough through out NZ to do this and keep the rules tight like:
*sealing Motors
*controlled tyres (supercorsa's ete)
*Aftermarket can only
*fork enternals only no gsxr bullshit
*standard shock and maybe the upgrade of a standard gsxr shock for sv's ete ete


If this was to happen it Beleive it would be the closest and cheapest racing at the nationals and even at club level.

Then theres the question of the the old proddy 250's and 400's You dont see very many in top 5 at nationals in f3 class so leave them be( not been sexist towards them or anything).

We can run this all in the same Race class but where just racing for different points.

[Chops]

In response:

Personally I don't see it as being appropriate to hold back newer bikes to cater for obsolete machinery.

Formula 3 is meant to be a lower cost entry class. I cannot afford a new SV, plus all the tuning to keep it competitive and going.

650 will be the natural progression once all the 400cc crap out, these 400 bikes are getting old

Yes. I agree totally. Let them die first, don't hurry it along...Euthenasia is illegal remember...
My F3 bike (Aprilia 250) is a '98, with a few good years in her yet...
My last F3 bike was a 1989 NSR 250. Its still racing...

The problem is: A new class of machinery was brought into an existing class. It already had a capacity advantage, and was not too far behind in power as stock. No restrictions were placed on tuning.

So. Restrict engine tuning. The 250's are (No GP parts, no frame mods). Why not the 650's?. They do, after all have a 400cc capacity advantage... And its cheaper to have it less tuned than more, allowing more people to afford AND race them

[Shaun]

Now this has been running a while, I am very curious how many of you people that have replied actually do race?

How many of you actually do the NZ championships?

O, and just to give some a hint, Motorsport cost a lot of money, ( Relitive to your income)

No one ever said it was going to be cheap to do motorsport.

If you want cheap go buy an RG150 and have fun, but if you really want to race, cough up the dosh, get another job, rob a bank, whatever, ( I hear, Texmo is doing all of the above)

$ do not make sport, sportsmanship and dedication and commitment make sport!

I know what it costs to go racing, I spent years paying for everything myself, so did Stroud Bernard Rees etc. I know Mick Doohan even bought a tyre for himself once

Lets move on to the future, the past is stale!

Not trying to tell you all as it is, just hoping maybe a reallity check is needed in this thread, lets stop bleeting on about the bloody cost, get over it, lets try to help formulate a good F3 class structure.

[slowpoke]

In response:


Formula 3 is meant to be a lower cost entry class. I cannot afford a new SV, plus all the tuning to keep it competitive and going.


Yes. I agree totally. Let them die first, don't hurry it along...Euthenasia is illegal remember...
My F3 bike (Aprilia 250) is a '98, with a few good years in her yet...
My last F3 bike was a 1989 NSR 250. Its still racing...

The problem is: A new class of machinery was brought into an existing class. It already had a capacity advantage, and was not too far behind in power as stock. No restrictions were placed on tuning.

So. Restrict engine tuning. The 250's are (No GP parts, no frame mods). Why not the 650's?. They do, after all have a 400cc capacity advantage... And its cheaper to have it less tuned than more, allowing more people to afford AND race them

How do you actually enforce a "standard engines" rule on a four stroke?
At some point someone is going ask you to PROVE that it is standard, meaning an expensive and time consuming tear down. Or dyno the thing, but then you've got the hassles of transporting the bike or dyno all over the country and allowing for varying atmospheric conditions and/or altitudes: a bike is gonna make more horsepower on a cold wet day at Ruapuna compared to a hot dry day at Taupo.
I'm guessing two strokes would be far easier/cheaper to control: whip off cylinder head and it's all there, whereas its much more difficult to remove the head of a four stroke to check cams, porting, headwork etc.
I'm not saying standard engines wouldn't be good, I'm just saying it's more difficult to enforce

I don't mean to sound uncaring (I'm struggling to afford my "habit" too) but I'm just at a loss as to why the old bikes are being protected in this class but not others. I'm trundling around on an OLD R1 in Clubmans and admittedly I am the limiting factor not the bike, but I don't see any rules coming in to allow my old bike to remain competive with newer machinery. To further confuse the issue I know of racers who DELIBERATELY go and buy a pre '89 400 just so they can race in two classes, which is hardly a good justification if they are crying about staying competitive.

I'm kinda with Shaun on this one in that MOTORSPORT COSTS MONEY. Whether we like it or not there is a price of admission when it comes being competitive. Those of us on severely restricted budgets (I'm one of them) shouldn't really expect to rock up on a 10 or twenty year old bike and be up with the front runners. There are cheap classes (pre '89, Clubmans, buckets) available so it's up to us to do the sums and figure the appropriate class.

Machinery HAS to move with the times, it's just the nature of the sport we are in. It's a shame for people with a beautiful little thoroughbred like the Aprilia RS250. It is as close to a GP bike as you can get yet there are increasingly limited classes you can race competitively. Unfortunately it is the same the world over as environmental concerns make two strokes less viable, soon the GP classes will all be 250/450/800cc fourstrokes and we'll miss those lil' screamers.

[Posh Tourer :P]

Formula 3 is meant to be a lower cost entry class. I cannot afford a new SV, plus all the tuning to keep it competitive and going.

Unfortunately if F3 is kept well behind the F2 class, what is the stepping stone? 125s? 250s? 250s already race F3 bikes anyway. If the distance between classes is too great how do you progress?? Maybe classics or Pre-89s or post classics are the cheaper, entry level classes (updated occasionally for year of course, with the older bikes going into earlier classes) and F3 is a stepping stone, closer to F2?

Makes sense to me, but then I don't race. Still, with the 400 market dead except for licence and tax benefits in japan, what is the point in a current, competitive race class that is limited to a style of bike no longer in production in any numbers??

[Chops]

Unfortunately it is the same the world over as environmental concerns make two strokes less viable, soon the GP classes will all be 250/450/800cc fourstrokes and we'll miss those lil' screamers

AAAaaaaaauuuuugggg. Nooooo!!Viva la Ring Ding!!!

[Hillbilly]

I think the most sensible suggestion so far is the rule limiting the maximum power to 75hp, or 55.92Kw ( + or - 1% variance). Most of the FIM Superstock Rules should apply as well, if they don't already.

The 650 V-twins class in the US is known as "Superstock Lite". Do the Japanese still make 400's for the domestic Asian markets? If so, bikes like the RVF 400 may be around for a while yet. From what I can gather, Aprilia has ceased production of the RS 250. Don't know how many other manufacturers will follow suit. If the 250 cc 2-stroke road bikes are no longer being produced, they won't be long for the circuit either.

[SlowHand]

The blanket horse power rule still requires more thought tho. What if I spent mega moolah to get 75hp all through the rev range with clever ECU tuning?

[cowpoos]

The blanket horse power rule still requires more thought tho. What if I spent mega moolah to get 75hp all through the rev range with clever ECU tuning?

you nor anyone can fight and manipulate physics that way.....don't care how flash your ECU is!

[SlowHand]

How about electric motor? Or a turbo/supercharged one with ignition retarted etc etc

[Hillbilly]

The blanket horse power rule still requires more thought tho. What if I spent mega moolah to get 75hp all through the rev range with clever ECU tuning?

I guess you get to win. It think the FIM rules cover that sort of thing - here they are:

[FROSTY:Me]

I think shaun has hit the nail on the head--How many of you guys are actually racing nationals in F3 ?