Tougher Sentencing

[Lou Girardin]

[QUOTE=spudchucka]
On the other hand if he has truely changed he deserves the chance to get on with his life. He has a lot of people that are backing him so on the face of that I'll be happy for him to represent NZ.

He'll never be able to change what he did but he has total control over what he does in the future. I hope he proves that he was worthy of selection and goes on to be a worthwhile human being when he comes home.
QUOTE]

How many chances will you give him? He killed his kid, then had further convictions for assault, including on a female. Now he beats up people for sport.
This is remarkably liberal of you, I would have locked him up for good, years ago.

[spudchucka]

[QUOTE=Lou Girardin]

On the other hand if he has truely changed he deserves the chance to get on with his life. He has a lot of people that are backing him so on the face of that I'll be happy for him to represent NZ.

He'll never be able to change what he did but he has total control over what he does in the future. I hope he proves that he was worthy of selection and goes on to be a worthwhile human being when he comes home.
QUOTE]

How many chances will you give him? He killed his kid, then had further convictions for assault, including on a female. Now he beats up people for sport.
This is remarkably liberal of you, I would have locked him up for good, years ago.

Figure out how to use the quote thing properly. Your posts are annoying at the best of times but your inability to perform that basic function is lame.

I don't know the circumstances of how the kid died, I only know what is in the media and they aint reliable. I don't know enough about this guy to form a really strong opinion either way and I'm picking that you don't either. On the face of the info presented I'll (reluctantly) agree that he can go to the games.

Some people can and do change if they have the desire to and on that basis he can have the opportunity to prove he has changed. If he f**ks up then we'll hang the prick.

[Skyryder]

I hope this is just an attempt to wind me up... I presume by this definition there are no degrees of theft either??

No I am not trying to wind you or anyone up. There are no degrees of theft either, just the amount that has been stolen.

Skyryder

[Hitcher]

No I am not trying to wind you or anyone up. There are no degrees of theft either, just the amount that has been stolen.

Skyryder

And why should the amount matter? What has been stolen has been stolen, surely??

[Big Dog]

And why should the amount matter? What has been stolen has been stolen, surely??

Surely there is a difference between stealing a loaf of bread to feed your family and stealing a car for a joy ride?

[Big Dog]

To clarify in a welfare state like NZ stealing for food is never really neccesary.

[Skyryder]

Oh, come on, if this is your genuine opinion then you're just being a hidebound prat. I will restrain myself from making any counter-arguments, however, because if it was a troll, it was good enough to get even MY fingers twitching, and I refuse to bite.

Unfortunately I do suspect that you're serious.

Yes I am serious. My post on this subject had to do with murder. Not manslaughter. Manslaughter is accidental death. Murder is premeditated. I stand by my post on this subject that in the case of murder degrees are just legal excuses. I can remember a getting into serious discussion with a crimnal lawyer at a party on this subject a few years ago. He ageed with my reasoning that degrees of murder reflect legal argument. Fortunately in this country we do not have 2nd or 3rd degree as they do in the USA, so in many respects our law reflects my opinion that there are no degrees of death in relation to a murder charge. However they can be found guilty of manslaughter, if premeditation is in doubt. That makes little difference to the deceased who is till just as dead......either way.

Skyryder

[Skyryder]

Surely there is a difference between stealing a loaf of bread to feed your family and stealing a car for a joy ride?

No there is not. In both cases that is theft. Taking something that does not belong to you. However what you may be getting confused over is the cause although I serious doubt that stealing a loaf of bread in this country is justified.

Skyryder

[Skyryder]

So the perpetrator of a fatal accident ( just an accident, no aggravating factors) should receive the same sentence as William Bell. (The RSA murderer)

Better drive really carefully, Skyrider. There, but for the grace of God, go you.

I was not talking about manslaughter but murder. Check my post for this.

Skyryder

[jrandom]

Yes I am serious. My post on this subject had to do with murder. Not manslaughter.

Right. You didn't make that clear at the time.

[Big Dog]

No there is not.

Well, if you stole a loaf of bread from me I would not run you off the road to try to stop you getting away, nor would I expect the cops to.

On the other hand if you stole my pride and joy, I would sooner it was totalled by an intercept with the theif still on board than the theif got away. Yes I would be prepared to drive the intercept.

For a start it would make a much more interesting insurance claim form.

Cause aside:
$2.99 is annoying like a mosquito.

$10k is annoying like a pit bull.

If you don't see the difference you have never lost anything of value, the first is not three months hard work.

[Hitcher]

Surely there is a difference between stealing a loaf of bread to feed your family and stealing a car for a joy ride?

You guys argue that there's no difference between degrees of death, so on that basis why should there be a difference between degrees of theft, or damage either for that matter?

[Skyryder]

Well, if you stole a loaf of bread from me I would not run you off the road to try to stop you getting away, nor would I expect the cops to.

On the other hand if you stole my pride and joy, I would sooner it was totalled by an intercept with the theif still on board than the theif got away. Yes I would be prepared to drive the intercept.

For a start it would make a much more interesting insurance claim form.

Cause aside:
$2.99 is annoying like a mosquito.

$10k is annoying like a pit bull.

If you don't see the difference you have never lost anything of value, the first is not three months hard work.

Let me tell you what I have had stolen from. One of my hobbies is growing bonsai. These are small indavidual trees that take many years and a lot of work to train. Each one is different and each one unique. A few years ago I had over half my collection stolen. No insurance for me. Oh no you see each tree was priceless. And how do you put a price on something that you have grown trained and loved for a lifetime. When you have had something stolen that is pricelsess you may begin to understand that theft is theft and there are no excuses for it. Period.

Skyryder

[Big Dog]

Let me tell you what I have had stolen from. One of my hobbies is growing bonsai. These are small indavidual trees that take many years and a lot of work to train. Each one is different and each one unique. A few years ago I had over half my collection stolen. No insurance for me. Oh no you see each tree was priceless. And how do you put a price on something that you have grown trained and loved for a lifetime. When you have had something stolen that is pricelsess you may begin to understand that theft is theft and there are no excuses for it. Period.

Skyryder

So you do see the difference then. I measured mine in dollars = a measurment of my time and skills sold to employers. You measured yours in a Bonsai = Time and skills dedicated to a craft.

Surely you experienced more grief over this than if you made a loaf of bread and some one stole it? (a loaf of bread takes about 1/2 an hour to an hour and not a lot of skill, or you can buy one for 1/3 of an hour at minimum wage).

[Big Dog]

You guys argue that there's no difference between degrees of death, so on that basis why should there be a difference between degrees of theft, or damage either for that matter?

Actually I argue there is no degree of death but there has to be of murder.

I also argued there was a difference between calpability, liabilty and responsibility.