Presbyterians reverse decision

[Skyryder]

Yeah whatever. Hey, post up your PM's - you can take the names off, it'll be fun. Or is this just more of the bullshit we've come to expect from SkyRyder???

onya sky. That Finn needs putting down from time to time. No one does it better than you.


Sock it to him boyo.

Bet Finn is first in the line to buy your aftershave. Probaly needs it for his image.

Fuck you sky. I'm been trying to hammer that pric. You beat me to it every time.



Skyryder

[padre]

I took the liberty of researching this issue at Bible Org (see below). I agree would be maximally hypocritical to knowingly ordain ho's

Q. What is homosexuality?

Homosexuality is the manifestation of sexual desire toward a member of one's own sex or the erotic activity with a member of the same sex. (The Greek word homos means the same). A lesbian is a female homosexual or a person native to Lesbos.

Q. What should be the Christian's attitude toward the homosexual?

We must always keep before us the fact that homosexuals, like all of us sinners, are the objects of God's love. The Bible says, "But God commendeth His love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us" (Romans 5:8). Jesus Christ "is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world" (I John 2:2).

The Christian who shares God's love for lost sinners will seek to reach the homosexual with the gospel of Christ, which "is the power of God unto salvation, to every one that believeth" (Romans 1:16). As a Christian I should hate all sin but I can find no justification for hating the sinner. The homosexual is a precious soul for whom Christ died.

We Christians can show him the best way of life by pointing him to Christ. Our Lord said, "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature" (Mark 16:15). We are obligated to take the gospel to all.

Q. Do you care to make any comments on the Anita Bryant crusade in Dade County, Florida?

In my judgment Anita Bryant was justified in the action she pursued. She did not want her children exposed to the influence of a practicing homosexual in the public school classroom. Inasmuch as homosexuality is classified in the Bible as an evil, to insist that children be exposed to homosexual teachers in the public schools would be an infringement upon the rights of parents and their children.

Under no condition would I permit my children to be subjected to the influence of a sex pervert. As an American citizen I consider that choice to be my right. Anita Bryant laid her career on the line in the bold and courageous stand she took. She should not have to fight the battle alone. Christians should support her.

Q. How can we help Christians who get involved in the practice of homosexuality?

We can help them by seeking to draw their attention to what God says in His Word. In a kind and loving spirit we can show them that they are wrong. However, the homosexual must admit to the fact that he is living in sin and that he has the desire to be made free from it. Without a genuine conviction of God's displeasure and a strong desire to do God's will, there is no hope.

A truly born again person cannot continue to practice sin without reaping the results of miserable unhappiness brought on by loss of fellowship with God, the fear of retribution and the anxiety produced by guilt. The homosexual must ask himself, "Is the temporary gratification of the flesh worth all the penalty and losses I must suffer?"

Biography; of Anita Bryant - got a bigot award & has many hate (her) websits

Early career
A member of the Southern Baptist church, she is remembered for campaigning in the 1970s to repeal a local ordinance in Miami prohibiting discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation.

Singing from the age of two, Bryant became second runner-up in the 1959 Miss America beauty pageant. She had three big pop hits: including "Paper Roses" (1960) successfully covered 13 years later by Marie Osmond. In 1960, she married a disc jockey, with whom she raised four children. She became a spokeswoman for the Florida Citrus Commission in 1969, and nationally televised commercials featured her singing "Come to the Florida Sunshine tree".

She became widely recognizable, doing advertisements for Coca-Cola, Kraft Foods, Holiday Inn, and Tupperware. She sang "The Battle Hymn of the Republic" during the graveside services for Lyndon Johnson in 1973, and performed the National Anthem at Super Bowl III in 1969.

Anti-gay efforts
In 1977, Florida's Dade County (now Miami-Dade County) passed a human-rights ordinance that prohibited discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation. In response to this, Bryant led a major campaign to repeal the ordinance.

Her concerns over homosexual recruitment of children inspired the name of Bryant's political organization, Save Our Children. Among Bryant's assertions during the campaign were “As a mother, I know that homosexuals cannot biologically reproduce children; therefore, they must recruit our children” and “If gays are granted rights, next we'll have to give rights to prostitutes and to people who sleep with St. Bernards and to nail biters.”

In June 1977, Bryant's campaign led to a repeal of the anti-discrimination ordinance by a margin of 69 to 31 percent.
The next day, Bryant stated, “In victory, we shall not be vindictive. We shall continue to seek help and change for homosexuals, whose sick sad values belie the word ‘gay’ which they pathetically use to cover their unhappy lives.”

Victory and defeat
In the aftermath, legislation was passed outlawing adoption by gays and lesbians in the state of Florida and Bryant led several more campaigns around the country to repeal local anti-discrimination ordinances.

Dade County, in 1998, repudiated Bryant's successful campaign of 20 years earlier, and re-authorized an anti-discrimination ordinance protecting individuals from discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation by a 7 to 6 margin. The statute forbidding adoptions by gay persons in Florida, however, remains law.

Anita Bryant's political success galvanized her opponents. She became one of the first persons to be "pied" (i.e., hit in the face with a pie) as a political act, in Des Moines in 1977. Gay activists organized an Orange juice boycott, Many celebrities including Barbra Streisand, Bette Midler, Paul Williams and Jane Fonda publicly supported the boycott as well.

Career decline and bankruptcy
The fallout from her political activism had a devastating effect on her entertainment career. Her contract with the Florida Citrus Commission also was allowed to lapse because of the negative publicity she had generated

The Bibles main concern seems to be with males homosexuals. And the reason for this once you plough through all the name calling, mostly by Paul "perverts etc" would seem to be that God wants Christians to be breeding stock, and to do so in a "traditional" family context. Seems homosexuality was lumped in with adultery as something not conducive to Ms Bryants version of a "happy American family"

[Finn]

onya sky. That Finn needs putting down from time to time. No one does it better than you.


Sock it to him boyo.

Bet Finn is first in the line to buy your aftershave. Probaly needs it for his image.

Fuck you sky. I'm been trying to hammer that pric. You beat me to it every time.



Skyryder

No SkyRyder, the real PM's, not your made up ones. You are becoming more and more pathetic.

But while I remember, here's a few I got about you...

Fuck Finn, that was a bit low posting a pic of SkyRyder. He's not too camera friendly

Hey, did SkyRyder really deny being a pedophile

Fuck SkyRyder is boring. He thinks he's funny but he's an idiot.

I think you're right Finn, SkyRyder is a school teacher

Ha, ha, I bet he masterbates thinking of Clark.

Did his wife really leave him for his son?

There's more put it gets a bit personal.

[Skyryder]

No SkyRyder, the real PM's, not your made up ones.

You are becoming more and more pathetic.

They are the real ones.

Here's another.

Finn by you again. Love it.

Skyryder

[Zed]

"Progressive Presbyterians at the General Assembly were deeply saddened that the Assembly today rejected partnered gay and lesbian people, and people living in de facto relationships, as ministers and elders. They regard the decision as an affront to the gospel."

Im not a church goer, and im currently in a 10yr+ defacto relationship, but I have to agree with their decision.

Surely an organisation that is based on a belief that gay and defacto relationships are wrong, can not in good faith, have people practicing those relationships in positions of power...

The Protestant churches (Presbys, Anglican/Church of England, Methodists, et al) who came out of the Roman Catholic Church through the Protestant Reformation of the 16th century, have never completely freed themselves of the strong RCC influence in their doctrine and especially traditions that go contrary to the scriptures, and one of those traditions was to overule previous edict's and change doctrine consistently over their history. The authority for their decision making has never been the Bible!

But a strict adherance to the fundamental doctrines found in the Bible concerning marriage, adultery, and fornication is something ALL denominations struggle with in today's world, and yet that Bible prophesied this current apostacy of the church a long time ago. Anyone who has read and studied the Bible knows that the closer it gets to the 'end' the further away man gets from God, including God's people in the church.

[Skyryder]

No SkyRyder, the real PM's, not your made up ones. You are becoming more and more pathetic.

There's more put it gets a bit personal.

Now don't hold back Finn. Debase yourself.

Skyryder

[Skyryder]

The Protestant churches (Presbys, Anglican/Church of England, Methodists, et al) who came out of the Roman Catholic Church through the Protestant Reformation of the 16th century, have never completely freed themselves of the strong RCC influence in their doctrine and especially traditions that go contrary to the scriptures. But a strict adherance to the fundamental doctrines found in the Bible concerning marriage, adultery, and fornication is something ALL denominations struggle with in today's world, and yet that Bible prophesied this current apostacy of the church a long time ago. Anyone who has read and studied the Bible knows that the closer it gets to the 'end' the further man gets from God, including God's people in the church.

Just when I 'm having some fun with Finn you want to go and get this into the Scots thing.

I'm listening to some great blues at the moment that's got me cooking. Toss some prafinty into your post Zed just to keep this on track.

Love you bro you just keep on trucking with the man.

Skyryder

[Edbear]

The thing that frustrates me the most about religion is the fact that there is so much hipocracy and double standard setting. It turns so people off that they can't seem to stand together and be unidied. ie there are 30+ mainstream christian churches yet for the most count they can't agree on the colour of Shite. I think any faith or beleif system that can't follow its own teachings and fundamental standards holds very little in the way of credibilty. For the most part, nearly all religions denote and consider homosexuality as immoral or at least wrong. But my understanding of God, and especially Jesus' teachings is grace, and forgiveness. He said that we must love all and help eachother. After all we all do bad stuff to varying levels. Who is to say who deserves what.... I thought that was Gods judgement and that we would all be measured as we measure.
I think the decision to deny leadership to those who did not fall into the acceptable criteria for Godly ministers is correct. But how could it have been accepted otherwise, thats the point that shocks me. How can someone clearly disobeying God with there lifestyle be accepted into leadership.. Just shows sugar in the fuel tank, everything there gonna sieze up eventually.

A thoughtful post.

[kro]

The thing that frustrates me the most about religion is the fact that there is so much hipocracy and double standard setting.

This is where I agree, but disagree in the same breath. The only time the word hypocrisy seems to be highlighted in these forums, is on the subject of religion, and Police. Hypocrisy is occuring daily in places that DO affect you, like work, and home, and in friendships you cultivate, but for the most part, it's down-played, or ignored, and the frustrations it generates, are then unleashed on a group if individuals, who stand before God, and declare him real.

This in itself is the truest form of hypocrisy, as it shows up the spineless non-confrontational NZer's, who would rather moan about their shift manager taking long lunch breaks, whilst he/she gives you hell for being 2 mins late for work. This happens daily, and it's everywhere you look, and the way to deal to it, is to confront it head on, in the same way the church is forced to. If it's Hypocrisy you truly detest, then stand up for all the other daily "injustices", and leave the Church to try and iron out theirs too. The funny thing is, the Church goers won't judge you for not standing up to your hypocritical boss, but you'll judge them for inconsistencies in their doctrine.

I pulled my boss up 2 weeks ago, and told him cold faced, that his actions did not back up his words, and he was pissed to begin with, then came and apologised for being a quack.

Kitt, I am not directing this at you specifically matey, and I am not calling you anything, it's a general statement.

[kro]

A). It's not about changing the gospel ... it's about recognising that society has moved on from where it was 2000 years ago. (Or has it?)

This point is good, but has a very contemporary angle to it. The Christians refer to God as their "Rock", solid, and unchanging in his love of his people, and I guess God would expect the same in return, to the best of the individuals ability.

B) Consistency is a good thing but if that consistency does not reflect the environment in which any organisation operates, is it really maximising it's opportunities?

I think God's opportunities differ to those perceived by man, and for us to think we can see into the plans of God, then makes God unnecessary, and we are left with nothing.

C) If the church exludes a portion of our population for whatever reason and is not therefore open to everyone, is it not itself becoming a "well run private society"?

My understanding is the church does not exclude people per-se, but will veto people of certain persuasions from gaining positions of authority, in a house of God, that has to stay true to it's beliefs. As I said, if we rewrite the rules, then we are putting ourselves before God, and the whole church idea is completely unnecessary.

I think you'd find that a die-hard Harley riding bike gang, would veto/refuse the appointment of a Jap sports bike riding president to be the head of their chapter, as they hold fast to a form of "religion", and they have visions and values, that they see are important, and this is exactly where the church is coming from. Why should they comprimise?, who has the right to make them?.

[padre]

Anita Bryant and others saw it as a breach of their human rights if they were not to be permitted to discriminate against people they or their religion judged as at fault or "in error" or "sinful".

Their fear was for their children and clearly arose from protectiveness due to the bad or worse record for "committed" natural relationships of gay people, which they documented at the time.

1. Tendency of gays to not be monogamous and for parties in so called relationships to be very promiscuous (gay research supports this) which they might alledge shows there is no rest for he wicked or is evidence that such relationships are somehow off beam!
2. Tendency for such relationships to be power imbalanced - older plus younger
3. I guess they'd now add in the tendency of priests for same sex paedophilia which has been shown to be harmful to sufferers mental health,

I guess gays can retort that the unacceptability of society forced them to underground often dysfunctional relationships. But the fact remains that many out accepted gay people still cite phenomenal promiscuity - and lack of fulfilling relationships - more often than is the case for heteros.

[Skyryder]

I think you'd find that a die-hard Harley riding bike gang, would veto/refuse the appointment of a Jap sports bike riding president to be the head of their chapter, as they hold fast to a form of "religion", and they have visions and values, that they see are important, and this is exactly where the church is coming from. Why should they comprimise?, who has the right to make them?.

That's one of the best analogies I've seen for some time. Ultimately it is not about morality although this is the Presbyterians position. The fact is, as an orgnisation,albeit a religious one, they can make their own rules in regards to leadership, as can any orgaisation. Some churches refuse this role to woman on biblical scripture. But as an oraganisation they are free to do so. If one does not like the rules go and play another game. Or else buy a Harley.

Skyryder

[John Banks]

That's one of the best analogies I've seen for some time.

Except that the Presbyterian church aren't an "everyone but gays" church. It's more like saying that you have a bike club where only someone who rides a European bike is allowed to be the leader, because it's more traditional.

If one does not like the rules go and play another game.

Fair enough. If you're gay, I don't recommend joining the Presbyterian church. In fact I wouldn't recommend joining any church at all.

Or else buy a Harley.

I think scumdog will love this analogy. Harley = moral, upright, churchgoing citizens, Jappers = the gays.

[padre]

Fair enough. If you're gay, I don't recommend joining the Presbyterian church. In fact I wouldn't recommend joining any church at all.

I don'tthink so John. As with nuns it must come down to whether you are focussed on thoughts of "forbidden fruit" and whether you are exercising some restraint if so. The distinction must be made between "practising" gay or not.

There is a minister near Hamilton who used christianity to jump camps in a way that would have many born agains applauding - he switched from raving homosexual to now happy married effeminate daddy, that is where his christianity took him. His mum and dad was HAPPY!

[Oakie]

I think you'd find that a die-hard Harley riding bike gang, would veto/refuse the appointment of a Jap sports bike riding president to be the head of their chapter, as they hold fast to a form of "religion", and they have visions and values, that they see are important, and this is exactly where the church is coming from. Why should they comprimise?, who has the right to make them?.

Excellent analogy.