Gunshop employee charged

**Bend-it** · 14th November 2006, 16:11

Originally Posted by ManDownUnder

The real crime in this situation is the upcoming financial burden to be heaped squarely on the shoulder of he who has to justify and defend himself.

That sucks, and in the event he's acquitted I think he should be reimbursed in full, for lost wages, expenses incurred etc.

Yes, that!

Maybe... what if he was "law-abiding" and wasn't "ready"? Then guns would have been stolen, possibly people hurt etc. In whch case the law is penalising a law-abiding citizen...

**jrandom** · 14th November 2006, 16:12

Originally Posted by Bend-it

Why am I pissing you off?

Your last post in response to Jim2 contained several fallacies, in the strictest Socratic sense. I tend to have an emotional reaction to flawed rhetoric.

**ManDownUnder** · 14th November 2006, 16:15

Originally Posted by Bend-it

Maybe... what if he was "law-abiding" and wasn't "ready"? Then guns would have been stolen, possibly people hurt etc. In whch case the law is penalising a law-abiding citizen...

Exactly the issue to be calrified in that most rarified air of the court. The crown contests he broke the law by being ready for the bad guy(s) if/when they came

The victim will no doubt agree with the crown's contention, and put the argument they did the right thing.

It turns out the current law may adequately address the needs of NZ society... what to do about that then? Watch the next episode of Judge Judy!

**Paul in NZ** · 14th November 2006, 16:21

Originally Posted by Jim2

No. Anyone who commits an act of violence should be charged with a crime. .

Does that include drunken fights in bars?

Paul N

**Bend-it** · 14th November 2006, 16:31

Originally Posted by Fish

Your last post in response to Jim2 contained several fallacies, in the strictest Socratic sense. I tend to have an emotional reaction to flawed rhetoric.

Ahhh, I was laughing at the assertion that the statictics were not skewed in any way just because they were collected from police and court records. Not that police of courts don't record correctly, but the collection, organisation and reporting of the statictics is where things go awry...

**davereid** · 14th November 2006, 19:12

As a matter of interest, I wanted to find out if I could unlock my safe, load my shotgun and be ready for self defence in less than a minute, so I asked my wife to time me. I was amazed at the result.
I had made a "pre preparation" ie I knew where the keys - shotgun - ammo were, and they were arranged for easy but legal access. I had guessed it would take 1-2 minutes. But as timed, I took only 18 seconds from GO till holding a fully loaded shotgun, previously locked in a gun-safe in another room.

Interestingly, with firearms being locked away I had never considered they would be usefull for self defence. Now I am convinced that with practice I could have my legally stored firearms ready to go in under 15 secs.

With regard to those who bleat "who wants to be like america" and "gun control makes you safer", spend a bit more time in the real world.

Facts - Manchester England 100% gun control, 3.7 murders with guns per 100,000 people. North Dakota USA, no gun control, buy your handgun at Walmart, 0.9 murders with all weapons per 100,000 people.

Of course this doesnt show anything except...

A)Crime is caused by criminals
B)Gun Control does not control criminal use of firearms

Good luck Mr. Carvell, my cheque is in the mail.

**scumdog** · 14th November 2006, 19:22

Originally Posted by davereid

As a matter of interest, I wanted to find out if I could unlock my safe, load my shotgun and be ready for self defence in less than a minute, so I asked my wife to time me. I was amazed at the result.
I had made a "pre preparation" ie I knew where the keys - shotgun - ammo were, and they were arranged for easy but legal access. I had guessed it would take 1-2 minutes. But as timed, I took only 18 seconds from GO till holding a fully loaded shotgun, previously locked in a gun-safe in another room.

Interestingly, with firearms being locked away I had never considered they would be usefull for self defence. Now I am convinced that with practice I could have my legally stored firearms ready to go in under 15 secs.

Good luck Mr. Carvell, my cheque is in the mail.

I bet you could cut that time by quite a bit if your gun cabinet was within arms reach of the bed eh?

**NZHog** · 14th November 2006, 19:30

Great post Fish,like you I made my decisions a long time ago on this.
I have no doubt that so have the Carvells.
That said they will be my shop of preference in the future & I will contribute towards Gregs defence. I do expect that good precedents will be set.

Mark

Originally Posted by Fish

But it's still illegal, and I would have stashed that mag in the sure knowledge of what I'd have to put up with if I ever used it.

I view the daily carry of my Chinook in the same light. If I ever need to use it, I'm fully aware that the next time I see it, it'll be inside an evidence bag.

And that's the way I like it.

**Swoop** · 14th November 2006, 19:39

So. Who listened to Ray Carvell being interviewed on the radio (approx 5pm) who stated "we are allowed to keep loaded guns on the premises... since we have an "F" licence"?

**Toaster** · 14th November 2006, 20:00

Originally Posted by spudchucka

Why would it be loaded as part of a customer demo? Was he just going to pop off acouple of rounds into the back wall to show his customer how the weapon functions?

If he was doing something like that shouldn't it be done at a range instead of the public counter of a shop?

It was merely speculation - I am not condoning it. Of course weapons should only be loaded at firing ranges (unless out hunting of course.)

**NZHog** · 14th November 2006, 20:03

No Bend-it semi ready does not work for me. How do I transport the means of self-defence to & from work?
You either have the right to carry concealed or not.
I am safe at home, I have a plan. I am at risk at work,I have a plan there but concealed carry would enhance it.
That said NZ is not ready yet to give people that right.
That is changing & that is good...

**NZHog** · 14th November 2006, 20:17

What about those who don't work in a gun shop. I would say the only place for a gun ready to be used in self defence is under the direct control & RESPONSIBILITY of the owner.
But then I am also one of those ranting Libertarianz...

Still great posts by the way.

Originally Posted by Fish

Good stuff. That's more like what I expected!

I agree with it, too. Let's try and identify a way of sensibly tweaking the law to allow citizens to bear arms for worthy purposes, while keeping criminals as impotent as possible. If we can add a bit of education for the masses in as well, all the better.

As I pointed out earlier, a modification to the statutes relating to firearms storage would restore our ability to easily exercise our right of self-defense. What say you to that?

**NZHog** · 14th November 2006, 20:25

The expense is one of those nasty realities we have to consider.I agree that should not be the case.
The actions do need to be subject to judgement.That judgement should be provided swiftly & that is a major issue with justice in this country.