Legalise the herb

[spudchucka]

Even a piddly little C-class drug conviction can mean bye-bye holiday Visa - if you like to travel, this can have bad implications.

Well people should think about that before they engage in that activity not when they are caught and all of a sudden start bleating that "this isn't fair because I want to travel overseas". Next time folks are toking on a doobie or lighting up the P pipe they should ask themselves if the want Mr Customs officer looking up their arse for contraband. If you are happy with that outcome then keep on toking boys and girls and don't moan when you OE turns to shit or you get the rubber glove treatment at the border

[Drunken Monkey]

Indeed, spudchucka, I beleive that is true of every law - people know where they stand and if they knowingly break the law they shouldn't whine about the consequences. That doesn't mean a lobby group can't or shan't push the law makers for a change. As it stands at the moment, the majority rules no. Trends change, and one day things might be different.

[spudchucka]

Well unless Nandor and his mob get in, (Yeah right) I can't see it changing anytime soon. The Nats are pushing for a crack down on law and order and it will be intersting to see how that effects the pollls. I just can't see mainstream NZ ever wanting to soften the drug laws.

[Drunken Monkey]

Agreed, New Zealander's are traditionally a conservative bunch...

[scumdog]

Quote:"Evil? How can a 'thing' be evil?"

Maybe I should have put speech marks around the word evil :confused2

I was meaning because something that has caused a lot of social and economic expense and pain is legal is not a valid argument to legalise another potential pandoras box of trouble.

At the risk of sounding pedantic (anal?) it's like saying we already have stoats and ferrets here so why not liberate ... (pick your favorite predator with no known natural predators).

The flatmate getting busted scenario is as likely as the passenger in a car being driven by a drunk getting "done" for aiding and abetting,- it is possible but uncommon and unlikely except in exceptional circumstances.

[Drunken Monkey]

Well stoats and ferrets used as rabbit control has been shown time and time again to be more ineffective than effective = there's the precedent, quite a strong precedent too, so that's why we wouldn't even consider introducing another mustalid predator as a form of pest control.

Yes, the bad points of both drugs & alcohol need to be taken in to account. However, correct me if I'm wrong, but we don't have a strong case history in New Zealand for prohibition of marijuana = our current law on marijuana is descended from original English law. The fact that this is a point of contention across the western world is an indication there is more to this than simply being 'bad' for you.

Yeah that was an outlandish example, but just an example. The point was about lessening the legal impact on what would otherwise be a law abiding citizen. In practice I would imagine the charges would be thrown out, if laid at all.

[Drunken Monkey]

In addition:
Legal precedent with respect to sale and consumption of alcohol laws has developed over time, as per the changes from 6pm closing, then 10pm closing, raises and/or reductions in drinking age, etc... These changes are suggested, sometimes applied, sometimes contested in court and/or parliamentary debate, and sometimes removed.
Is it not unreasonable then, if there is enough support shown, to have the prohibition of marijuana laws changed? In the end, we can only make educated guesses about changes to crime, social habbits, etc... It would take actual practice to know in the end what suits us best. We may very well degenerate into a lawless society full of dope-heads. If this were to happen, we'd change the law back and keep it that way for many years until social pressures dictate a change again.

[scumdog]

I guess I'm a bit of a hypocrit, I drink to excess (so they tell me) at times and alcohol used like that ain't good for you but have no time for legalising cannabis, however if both alcohol and drugs vanished overnight I wouldn't lose any sleep,
I guess I see the "shitty" end of the stick too often

I gather cannabis WAS legal soe time in the past in NZ, why was it banned and when, anybody know? (too lazy to look it up for myself)

[James Deuce]

I guess I'm a bit of a hypocrit, I drink to excess (so they tell me) at times and alcohol used like that ain't good for you but have no time for legalising cannabis, however if both alcohol and drugs vanished overnight I wouldn't lose any sleep,
I guess I see the "shitty" end of the stick too often

I gather cannabis WAS legal some time in the past in NZ, why was it banned and when, anybody know? (too lazy to look it up for myself)

Cannabis was marketed as an asthma remedy in the 1920s, but along the the US we legislated against cropping any and all Hemp products because it threatened the forestry based pulp and paper industry. Hemp has tiny amounts of THC, and to get the effect of a modern cannabis hybrid you have to smoke a 2 tonne doobie. But it makes excellent fabric fibre, and can be used to make excellent quality paper. However, you can hide a pretty big cannabis crop in a field of Hemp.

[Jackrat]

Just because you can't see the logic, doesn't mean it isn't there. I don't see why it isn't perfectly valid. I don't personally think that it's grounds alone for a law change, but in the context of all the information it's a different story.

I don't and didn't disagree that drug abuse was bad. Just because some people abuse drugs, why should others suffer. Also, to me it's not a legalising something we have been banned from perspective, but giving back a right that has been taken away.

There have been well publicised cases in the past where people have taken small amounts of marijuana purely for medicinal (pain releif) reasons. Not every weed smoker is a stoner because you can't see any other examples.


No, for fucks sake, YOU grow up. There's no need for that kind of public belittling, you self-righteous shit head. If I sit here and tell you I shagged your mum and she screamed your name when I stuck it in her ass, we wouldn't really be having an intelligent discussion now, would we?

You still havn't explained why we should legalise one drug just because another is legal.
And by the way,I wouldn't fuck your mother up the ass,if it took we'd just have another version of you.

[Skyryder]

Well people should think about that before they engage in that activity not when they are caught and all of a sudden start bleating that "this isn't fair because I want to travel overseas". Next time folks are toking on a doobie or lighting up the P pipe they should ask themselves if the want Mr Customs officer looking up their arse for contraband. If you are happy with that outcome then keep on toking boys and girls and don't moan when you OE turns to shit or you get the rubber glove treatment at the border

In the first few years of my marriage I knocked round with a large variety of people. Surfers, students, activivists of various persuasion etc. We had some surfer friends who lived in a house near the beach. This was a mixied group of two surfie students and if memory recall correctly four working surfers. They were a bunch of guys who had a common interest and lived down by the beach. On this particular Friday night one of the surfers decided to by himself a new board for his bithday. As a practical joke a couple of them nicked his brand new board from his car. Our birthday surfer thinking that his board had been stolen notified the police, who turned up at his address late in the evening to make further enquires. (this was at time when the police had the time and resources for this) In the course of their enquiries into the stolen surfboard one of the policeman noticed some plants growing in the garden. Well the guy who planted them owned up now here's the 'funny' part the student who had the flat in his name was also charged and convicted. This guy had nothing to do with the growing of the plants or the practical joke but as a result of the current laws on this drug his future carreer was ruined.

Guys you can talk about the why's and the whynot's untill the cow comes home. It is all irrelevent. The law is there for the protection of society and members of. This guy harmed no one, robbed no one, killed no one, but as the law now stands he has a record as a criminal. JUST BLOODY WRONG.

Skyryder

.

[El Dopa]

In the first few years of my marriage I knocked round with a large variety of people. Surfers, students, activivists of various persuasion etc. We had some surfer friends who lived in a house near the beach. This was a mixied group of two surfie students and if memory recall correctly four working surfers. They were a bunch of guys who had a common interest and lived down by the beach. On this particular Friday night one of the surfers decided to by himself a new board for his bithday. As a practical joke a couple of them nicked his brand new board from his car. Our birthday surfer thinking that his board had been stolen notified the police, who turned up at his address late in the evening to make further enquires. (this was at time when the police had the time and resources for this) In the course of their enquiries into the stolen surfboard one of the policeman noticed some plants growing in the garden. Well the guy who planted them owned up now here's the 'funny' part the student who had the flat in his name was also charged and convicted. This guy had nothing to do with the growing of the plants or the practical joke but as a result of the current laws on this drug his future carreer was ruined.

Guys you can talk about the why's and the whynot's untill the cow comes home. It is all irrelevent. The law is there for the protection of society and members of. This guy harmed no one, robbed no one, killed no one, but as the law now stands he has a record as a criminal. JUST BLOODY WRONG.

Skyryder

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A nice illustration of an answer to Jackrats question which I will now attempt.

Q: Why should we decriminalise/legalise one 'bad thing' just because another roughly equivalent bad thing is legal?

A: Pragmatism, mainly. People smoke. People will always smoke. The genie is out of the bottle and won't go back. Some people smoke to escape miserable circumstances or because they have adictive personalities. I would respectfully submit that the views of the police contributing to this thread may be somewhat skewed by dealing with the fallout from these people who would probably be bad eggs whatever happened to be around to get high on (if there wasn't dope or booze they'd be sniffing glue).

A very large proportion of people in our society smoke, or have smoked, who have come to no great harm, who have done no harm to others, and in all other ways they are model members of society. However, hanging over their heads is always the threat of being busted and then watching their lives get pissed down the toilet.

Certainly, as Mr Spud has pointed out, if you can't do the time, don't do the crime. However......

A bad law does no service to society because it encourages those who may break it to hold the law in contempt, and also those who enforce it. A comparison off the top of my head would be speeding. Most people on this forum would agree that doing 80 in a built-up residential zone is a bad thing and that that law should be enforced. Most people on this forum would also agree that being busted for doing 120 on the southern motorway in fine weather and light traffic is harsh, and there are enough people already banging on about 'bloody revenue collectors'. A speeding ticket can be paid off reasonably easily, and the demerits disappear after a while. A drugs conviction on the other hand will hang around forever, affecting your employability, travel opportunities etc etc. You are penalised for the rest of your life for what may be no more than a 'youthful indiscretion'.

To sum up: Why decriminalise it? Because keeping it illegal makes potential criminals of a large segment of society who are otherwise fine, upstanding, law-abiding and contributing taxpayers.

[pete376403]

I gather cannabis WAS legal soe time in the past in NZ, why was it banned and when, anybody know? (too lazy to look it up for myself)

Cannabis hasn't always been against the law in Aotearoa. Our cry to 'legalise' it is in reality a misnomer, when 're-legalise cannabis' would be a far more accurate thing to say. New Zealand followed Britain's lead when, in 1927, the Government passed the Dangerous Drugs Act and outlawed the cannabis sativa plant. http://www.norml.org.nz/article298.html
Lots of drugs were legal once. Guess what the "coca" in Coca-cola originally referred to. Another, Laudanum was another favourite tonic, a wildly popular drug during the Victorian era. It was an opium-based painkiller prescribed for everything from headaches to tuberculosis. Victorian nursemaids even spoon fed the drug to cranky infants, often leading to the untimely deaths of their charges. Laudanum's biggest clam to fame however was its use by the romantic poets. Many of the Pre-Raphaelites (Among them Lord Byron, Shelly and others) were know to indulge. Work such as was produced under the influence of these has not been seen since.

[MikeL]

JUST BLOODY WRONG.
.

Yes. There are good laws and there are bad laws. It is unfortunate when some people feel the need to oppose change because of a misplaced respect for "the law" just because it is the law.

Social progress (that is, better lives) can only come from adopting a critical attitude to the rules and regulations that bind us as well as protect us. How can unjust laws be removed unless brave people speak out against them, and braver people defy them?

Misinformation, expediency and hypocrisy abound in the sordid story of drug legislation and opposition to attempts at liberalization. The misinformation and expediency are bad enough, but the hypocrisy is intolerable. Are we expected to believe that those whose job it is to enforce the law are so convinced by the arguments against cannabis use that they never touch it themselves??

Of course for the police the drug laws are very convenient and arguments about the dangers or otherwise of smoking pot are probably quite irrelevant...

[MikeL]

Laudanum's biggest clam to fame however was its use by the romantic poets. Many of the Pre-Raphaelites (Among them Lord Byron, Shelly and others) were know to indulge. Work such as was produced under the influence of these has not been seen since.

"In Xanadu did Kublai Khan a stately pleasure-dome decree..."

my thousandth post... and I was saving it for Zed... Damn!

Talk about premature expostulation...