Legalise the herb

[MikeL]

The costs of all the social and health problems that would ensue would far outweigh the revenue collected. Look at cigarette smoking and heart disease, despite the huge tax haul from fag smoking we'd still be better off if we didn't have tobacco at all.


While I can see some sense in your arguements I simply can't agree with legalisation. I guess I've seen too many of the negative consequences of smoking pot.

1 Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to recall reading somewhere that the revenue the government collects on tobacco is greater than the cost of health care associated with its use. I realize that indirect costs borne by society or the economy but not paid for directly by the tax-payer change the overall equation, but the fact remains that the Treasury's bottom-line is healthier if people smoke (and drink, and speed...)

2 As a policeman you naturally see more negative consequences of most human activities than the layman. How many instances of beneficial use of illegal drugs are you likely to encounter?? Although you are certainly qualified to offer an opinion based on your experience, it would be wise not to draw too broad a conclusion from them.
How many people on this forum would you guess have smoked pot? How many of them are living useful lives as well-adjusted, responsible, otherwise-law-abiding citizens?

3 As I see it the one convincing argument for legalisation of pot is the hypocrisy involved in outlawing it when both tobacco and alcohol are legal and widely used. The abuse of both these substances results in individual and social costs far higher than the known costs of marijuana abuse, if we remove from the equation those factors resulting directly from the illegality of pot.

[spudchucka]

1: I haven't seen the actual Govt figures on tax take versus social / medical costs borne by society. So I'm generalising, having a guess, I'll admit, but I think that the true costs to society are largely unknowable.

2: Its true, people in my line of work see far more of the negative consequences of drug abuse than probably any other profession. But I've had plenty of contact with people who smoke it casually and swear it is harmless.

Its easy for these people to form that opinion from their safe middle class world where they just want to be left alone to enjoy a quiet doobie. They go down to the local tinnie house and buy their weekend supplies, hand over their money and blissfully smoke themselves to whatever happy place turns their crank.

They don't see and they don't want to know about the kids of the drug dealers or the hard core addicts that can't feed their children because they are smoking away the weeks budget.

Then our white middle class pot smoker gets all upitty when his place gets burgled. The worst thing is that his PS2 got flogged and thats what he enjoys doing while he's spinning out. What he doesn't realise is that he's probably just been ripped off by another drug user who took his PS2 straight round to the same tinnie house and traded it for another bullet or P bag.

By the way Mike, I haven't always been a policeman, I was a human once and did human things and had human friends, so don't assume that my opinions are based solely on my experiences as a policeman.

3: So because we already have several socially accepted harmful drugs we should legalise other harmful drugs simply because it would be hypocritical of us to not legalise it. Phooey!! Thats liberal lefty sandle wearing teacher talk.

The known costs of cannabis use? What are they? How can it be estimated what the costs would be if it was legalised?

[Drunken Monkey]

1 Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to recall reading somewhere that the revenue the government collects on tobacco is greater than the cost of health care associated with its use. I realize that indirect costs borne by society or the economy but not paid for directly by the tax-payer change the overall equation, but the fact remains that the Treasury's bottom-line is healthier if people smoke (and drink, and speed...)

That was me, on this thread:

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...&postcount=128

Based on 2002 figures, total tax revenue from tobacco was 895.3 million (1.9% of the total tax revenue), healthcare cost for smoking related diseases was 230.5 million, from WHO and MOH.

[MikeL]

Thats liberal lefty sandle wearing teacher talk.

Guilty as charged. Except for the sandal-wearing...

But would you accept that other than liberalization the only morally consistent approach is to ban tobacco and alcohol as well?

Would you accept prohibition? If not, why not?

[scumdog]

Guilty as charged. Except for the sandal-wearing...

But would you accept that other than liberalization the only morally consistent approach is to ban tobacco and alcohol as well?

Would you accept prohibition? If not, why not?

I would accept the prohibition - even though I drink a little too much at times.

They cause so much heart-ache and financial problems plus they're not the best for the average guys health either.

It would make my job a lot easier too.

Don't hold with the sorry arsed argument that "look at the problems alcohol causes, they might as well legalise cannabis", it is not a valid reason to legalise anything just because another negative item is already legal

[Midnight 82]

1: I haven't seen the actual Govt figures on tax take versus social / medical costs borne by society. So I'm generalising, having a guess, I'll admit, but I think that the true costs to society are largely unknowable.

2: Its true, people in my line of work see far more of the negative consequences of drug abuse than probably any other profession. But I've had plenty of contact with people who smoke it casually and swear it is harmless.

Its easy for these people to form that opinion from their safe middle class world where they just want to be left alone to enjoy a quiet doobie. They go down to the local tinnie house and buy their weekend supplies, hand over their money and blissfully smoke themselves to whatever happy place turns their crank.

They don't see and they don't want to know about the kids of the drug dealers or the hard core addicts that can't feed their children because they are smoking away the weeks budget.

Then our white middle class pot smoker gets all upitty when his place gets burgled. The worst thing is that his PS2 got flogged and thats what he enjoys doing while he's spinning out. What he doesn't realise is that he's probably just been ripped off by another drug user who took his PS2 straight round to the same tinnie house and traded it for another bullet or P bag.

By the way Mike, I haven't always been a policeman, I was a human once and did human things and had human friends, so don't assume that my opinions are based solely on my experiences as a policeman.

3: So because we already have several socially accepted harmful drugs we should legalise other harmful drugs simply because it would be hypocritical of us to not legalise it. Phooey!! Thats liberal lefty sandle wearing teacher talk.

The known costs of cannabis use? What are they? How can it be estimated what the costs would be if it was legalised?

Hey I totaly agree with you all. Im just saying from my point of view. So what can be done?????????

[**R1**]

Would you accept prohibition? If not, why not?

I would...i smoke but i recon if the govmnt gave a fuck about our health they would just outlaw it....then i wouldnt have to pay huge tax on it and i would have no choice but to give up...but theres no money in that now is there??....as for alcohol, i cant stand drunkn bums in town on the weekend, and my missus works in a mental hospital and the problems that alcohol has caused she said is unbeliveble....funny not the same with pot she rekons. so bring back prohibition i say(and i'll buy a stil and become rich)

[scumdog]

Problems I see with cannabis:

People who are slightly unmotivated become really unmotivated after using it for a while, don't have a job.

No job = no money? no problem, - tick it up with the nice dealer!.

Can't pay dealer? - get a beating/property 'taxed' by him for the debt.

Still can't pay off the debt? Steal an X-box/PS2 and trade/sell that.

Need to get around town to the dealer and got no dollars? Get a $150 dollar P.O.S. car, get bulk tickets for no WOF/Reg etc.

Can't pay fines? Never mind, a bit of P.D. will do the trick?

Can't get to P.D. cos the P.O.S. car don't go? -Court and threat of jail.

Oh yes, SOME may be able to toke-up, pay for it, still perform at work etc but for some it's a slippery slope to being a "go nowhere nuff-nuff". who well may end up doing harder drugs - just like the alkie who starts off on beer and ends up on sherry.

It's a crying shame to visit a place every few months and see it and the occupants going downhill - still got a P.O.S. car, a mangy mutt or two, a poorly made Harley wall hanging (nearest they'll get to one) a Jack Daniels mirror, a rented PS2, an unwashed smell, final demands for electricity, no food in the cupboards, - oh yes, they sure know how to live it up, not like those dumb-arsed straights that go to work and pay they're bills, no sir, we're doing our own thing - and ten years later they're still doing they're own thing living "Ground-Hog Day" same thing day after day over and over and over........

I don't feel too sorry for them but they breed and it's the kids why I feel sorry for - what chance of getting anywhere have they with that home background? (and the fetal alcohol syndrome/ADHD etc)

[**R1**]

Problems I see with cannabis:

People who are slightly unmotivated become really unmotivated after using it for a while, don't have a job.

No job = no money? no problem, - tick it up with the nice dealer!.

Can't pay dealer? - get a beating/property 'taxed' by him for the debt.

Still can't pay off the debt? Steal an X-box/PS2 and trade/sell that.

Need to get around town to the dealer and got no dollars? Get a $150 dollar P.O.S. car, get bulk tickets for no WOF/Reg etc.

Can't pay fines? Never mind, a bit of P.D. will do the trick?

Can't get to P.D. cos the P.O.S. car don't go? -Court and threat of jail.

Oh yes, SOME may be able to toke-up, pay for it, still perform at work etc but for some it's a slippery slope to being a "go nowhere nuff-nuff". who well may end up doing harder drugs - just like the alkie who starts off on beer and ends up on sherry.

It's a crying shame to visit a place every few months and see it and the occupants going downhill - still got a P.O.S. car, a mangy mutt or two, a poorly made Harley wall hanging (nearest they'll get to one) a Jack Daniels mirror, a rented PS2, an unwashed smell, final demands for electricity, no food in the cupboards, - oh yes, they sure know how to live it up, not like those dumb-arsed straights that go to work and pay they're bills, no sir, we're doing our own thing - and ten years later they're still doing they're own thing living "Ground-Hog Day" same thing day after day over and over and over........

I don't feel too sorry for them but they breed and it's the kids why I feel sorry for - what chance of getting anywhere have they with that home background? (and the fetal alcohol syndrome/ADHD etc)

yeah same goes for any substance, not just pot......and there are an aweful lot of people i know that smk pot and are doing pretty dam well for them selves....i cant say its not the pot but the people your describing i think would be exactly where they are with or without the pot. they are whats known as loosers and keeping them down there is what keeps us up here . i realise its your job to deal with them and you see all the adverse effects but what about the tens of thousands that are un effected?? there's probly not too many on here who will openly admit to smking pot but 80% of the people i know do and they all have jobs, bikes, kids, houses, etc. me included.

in my life i have been arrested 4 times 3 times i was drunk the other time was on my bike(long story)...so should we ban motorcycles an alcohol??? i dont think anyone on here will agree to that,

well thats my 2cents........its one of those subjects that we will all have to agree to disagree on i cant see any right or wrong....just like jappa's are hot and harleys are not

[scumdog]

Aaron, you will have noted I DID say that there are a lot of people out there for whom pot does not cause any problems, I was commenting on the ones that do have problems (my 80% is the ones whose life IS shit and it has direct links to there 'lifestyle - including overuse of 'recreational drugs', - the exact opposite of your 80% you have had contact with).

You may have also noted I was not crusading to ban the stuff but just giving a perspective of MY experiences with life losers and their links with pot, A side of life that an awful lot of the public (pot users included) are blithely unaware of. :unsure:

Except when they get ripped off by somebody that needs money for a visit to the tinny-house. :disapint:

[MrMelon]

Wouldn't making it legal to grow small amounts for personal use take the criminal element out of the equation? That way penalties for gangs who are growing and selling huge quantities could be stepped up.

It's not like everyone would suddenly go out and start growing pot just because it's legal to do so either, but in theory it would dry up a lot of illegal income and reduce crime related to that.

With the society the way it is I still don't think it would work though.

[**R1**]

Aaron, you will have noted I DID say that there are a lot of people out there for whom pot does not cause any problems, I was commenting on the ones that do have problems (my 80% is the ones whose life IS shit and it has direct links to there 'lifestyle - including overuse of 'recreational drugs', - the exact opposite of your 80% you have had contact with).

You may have also noted I was not crusading to ban the stuff but just giving a perspective of MY experiences with life losers and their links with pot, A side of life that an awful lot of the public (pot users included) are blithely unaware of. :unsure:

Except when they get ripped off by somebody that needs money for a visit to the tinny-house. :disapint:

Fair.........we should just lock em up and giv em all the P they want then eh? J/K

do people realy steal just to buy pot???? or is it for harder drugs, and if it was legal would they still have to steal?? or would they then move on2 the heavy stuff??
a tiny is only $20 why do they even need to steal?
I must have led a shelterd life i guess

[spudchucka]

Guilty as charged. Except for the sandal-wearing...

But would you accept that other than liberalization the only morally consistent approach is to ban tobacco and alcohol as well?

Would you accept prohibition? If not, why not?

Why do you always like to take the moral high ground? Your views are obviously those of an idealist, not a realist.

I smoked cigarettes for about 10 years of my life. Giving them up was the best thing I have ever done. I like a drink but really wouldn't care too much if alcohol was no longer available.

I don't see the cannabis debate as being about morals and I don't see why consistency has to be a consideration either. To me its about reducing the ways in which young people can fuck up their lives.

The fact that NZ has huge problems with drug & alcohol abuse, binge drinking in young people, cigarette smoking and gambling suggests to me that large portions of our population have highly addictive personalities and are incapable of controlling themselves. Why give them another legal substance to abuse?

Domestic violence, property crime, car crime, violent robberies, rapes, murders etc etc, they are all linked to drug use and cannabis is the entry level drug of choice. Its fair to say that alcohol abuse contributes to all of the above as well but in the case of property crime & violent robberies the drug abusers feature a lot more regularly.

They don't get published much anymore but the old Court reports in the newspapers were always full of bleeding heart stories about how "my client couldn't help himself because of his drug addiction, your honour". Thankfully a lot of judges are refusing to take this BS as any sort of mitigating factor these days.

[spudchucka]

Wouldn't making it legal to grow small amounts for personal use take the criminal element out of the equation? That way penalties for gangs who are growing and selling huge quantities could be stepped up.

The criminals who are making $$$ out of cannabis will simply move on to the next easiest & most lucrative black market commodity.

Its not like they will suddenly decide, "shit I better go get me a job". Is it?

[riffer]

The criminals who are making $$$ out of cannabis will simply move on to the next easiest & most lucrative black market commodity.

Its not like they will suddenly decide, "shit I better go get me a job". Is it?

No, but there will always be people in society who will prey on others in this way. It should not be a factor in the decriminalisation issue.

These buggers also spend their ill-gotten money on Harleys. Should we ban Harleys? (sorry WT - just a hypothetical argument here)