Latest Military Tech

[Holy Roller]

The small calibre is not designed to kill outright but tie up man power carting the wounded out or attending to them. Wounded men reduce the moral of the company, dead men cause the men to band together and determin to get the so and so's. phsycobabble rules these days. Went on exercise with the army while at Waiouru a couple of times but only had the SLR and M16, it was all great fun for a navy bod. Small arms training at Whangaparoa was awesome fun. On the navy pistol club range days when the big guns came out to be played with showed how false the movies really were when shooting large calibre hand guns.
All this talk makes me want to go out hunting again, I'll have to organise a trip with my mate sometime, sorry.

[scumdog]

Hmmm,mix an match mate.
Mitchell spider cast 3kg,Mitchell water proof 8kg,Penn 320GTI 15kg.
Sako A1.308,Brno SKK.308,H&K G3 .308,Marlin M70 .22.
Martin Firecat 65-80LB,PSE Coyote 50lb,Samick SLB69 45LB,Jerry Hill wild cat deluxe 55lb,Oneida black eagle 50-70lb.

If the power ever goes out I'll be ready

JIMMINY JR!!! Your list of lethal missile dispatchers is as extensive as mine, I don't feel so guilty about them now, it's just the 4,000 or so rounds of assorted ammo that I have to worry about now.

Yeah, don't reckon I'd starve then either

[scumdog]

I thought the reason for discontinuing the 7.62 round in the services had to do with some international humanitarian thing?
Something about round tumble / punch. I saw a 8mm film once, supposedly filmed in nam by a reporter. A stolen 7.62 came right through a tree trunk and tore a NZ soldiers arm clean off. If it wern't real it was way to realistic.

Apparently when hit by a 7.62 you were more likely to die than a simmilar wound from any other round size.

Having never used either My preference for the M16 over the styr comes down to one thing if it came down to no ammo hand to hand which would you rather be holding.

Conversely which would you rather be hit by baseball style?

They ALL tumble on impact, 7.62x39 breaks in two regularly due to design. No doubt a 7.62 (NATO I assume) just about tore the dudes arm off.

You're no more likely to die from a 7.62 then any other bullet hitting you in the same spot, it will penetrate through obstacles a bit better and travel straighter afterwards than 223 but even a 50 cal gets deflected on striking objects between the barrel and the intended target.
Still, for hunting give me a nice heavy slug every time

7.62 was dropped just because you can make a lighter rifle and a soldier can carry more ammo in 223 and if 223 doesn't kill as good as 308 (7.62) then all the better, as somebody has already said - awounded soldier ties up more resources and demoralises more than a dead one.

[angle]

I've grown quite accustomed to the our Steyrs bullpup design now and like its shorter length and rear mag which allows changing while still staying in the aim.

But it takes longer to change that mag + in real situation you'll tend to want to get out from the line of fire to change the mag.

However like most gas operated assault rifles they can jam if not kept clean.

AK family rifles are gas operated.

Also I'm not much of a fan of flashy electronic stuff. Nothing worse than the batteries going flat while you're out on patrol.

That'll be "a bugger" ! XM8 is actually a G36 with a new skin. OICW does have batteries though

And no open sights would make reaction shooting difficult (i.e. when someone pops out from a bush and you don't have time to line them up through the scope).

Very true. Does the AUG have open sights?


P.S. I've heard that NZSAS don't like the AUG, they prefer C7A1.

[Hoon]

But it takes longer to change that mag + in real situation you'll tend to want to get out from the line of fire to change the mag.

Changing a mag is just changing a mag...doesn't take any longer with a Steyr. Also I like to change my mag before I actually run out of rounds when I can as this means I don't have to recock the weapon and makes the change even quicker. While you are changing mags you are vulnerable, thats why I like to keep my last round in the chamber and in the aim while I'm changing mags....just in case the target reappears.

Yep the AK47 is renown as being the cheapest and most reliable assault rifle out there. However no western country is every going to adopt it as their standard weapon because the enemy use it. Also 7.62mm rifles are out too - none of the nato countries use them anymore as a standard rifle. All our allies have adopted 5.56mm now (i.e. M16, M4, Steyr, SA80 etc) - don't ask me why I just do as I'm told with what I get given.

Yep the Steyr has basic dot sights (like a pistols) on top of the scope housing. I'm sure this will find its way onto XM8 eventually.

[jrandom]

They ALL tumble on impact, 7.62x39 breaks in two regularly due to design.

They tumble because a 'long 'n' thin' spitzer (pointy) shape bullet, which you'll find in all military calibers, is good for range and accuracy but can't maintain its orientation during terminal ballistics, ie, after it hits something. That's why 'elephant gun' cartridges, like most belted magnums, .416 Rigbys etc are often loaded with short fat round-nose bullets, which will keep pointing forward and get better penetration in a hard target. Like a pachyderm's head.

Spitzer bullets aren't designed to break in two, they're designed for superior ballistics over a longer range. Any fragmentation is a side effect of the design.

The flimsy wee 62gr 5.56mm FMJs are renowed for fragmenting on impact within 100m range or so. After that they slow down enough that they don't break up when they hit.

I haven't heard much on 7.62x39s (the AK47 caliber) breaking up - would imagine they'd be less likely to do so than a 5.56, since they're a more solid and heavier bullet. Certainly 7.62x51 (.308) bullets don't have a rep for fragmenting, and I've never seen an FMJ one do so.

There's plenty of info and photographs of terminal ballistics tests in gelatin (ie, shoot into a long block of it and take a lengthways photo of the hole) on the net re. the various calibers.

My arsenal? Hmmm...

Franchi SPAS-12
Mosin Nagant M-38 (1943 Izhevsk production)
ex-Australian Army L1A1 SLR
Marlin .45ACP Camp Carbine (suppressed)
Remington .308 semi-auto
Ruger Mini-14
Ruger 10/22
Beat-up old Norinco .22 semi-auto

Next I want a Mk. 5 Enfield Jungle Carbine. And a Garand, but I doubt I'll be able to lay my hands on one for an affordable price any time soon.

[pete376403]

Garand as in M1? I know a guy who has one in his collection, he says it has never been fired. What is of interest to me is the manufacturers stamp up by the foresight - IBM.
(IBM turned over all much of their manufacturing capacity to military during WWII. As just about everything they made in those days was mechanical - punch card machinery - they were well placed to start making other sorts of hardware)

[jrandom]

Garand as in M1?

Yup.

"The best battle implement ever devised" - George Patton.

Bugger the AR poodleshooters, I want an M-1.

I know a guy who has one in his collection, he says it has never been fired

TBH I'd rather have a decommissioned WW2 service rifle.

[scumdog]

Quote:"I haven't heard much on 7.62x39s (the AK47 caliber) breaking up"

Jrandom, I've "played" quite a bit with various weapons/bullets, I found that FMJ 7.63x39 stuff has a hard core that tears loose from the rest of the bullet on impact with reasonably solid objects (green pine-wood etc) or rock.

Mate has just about one of everything from Vickers machine gun downwards and we have a ball "experimenting",

I've got three suppressed weapons myself, just the bees-knees :sly: .

Had a video a while ago, title escapes me at the moment but it was top-knotch and showed various calibres fired into a Yank car, into a fuel tank, bullet-proof jacket etc, if I can remember what it was called I'll get back to you.

[jrandom]

Jrandom, I've "played" quite a bit with various weapons/bullets, I found that FMJ 7.63x39 stuff has a hard core that tears loose from the rest of the bullet on impact with reasonably solid objects (green pine-wood etc) or rock.

Righto. I don't have an SKS or AK clone so my first-hand experience of 7.62x39 is very limited...

I've got three suppressed weapons myself, just the bees-knees

A, uh, 'friend' once told me that if you don't want to be making loud bangs, deer still fall down real good with a .45ACP JHP through the ribs

[scumdog]

Righto. I don't have an SKS or AK clone so my first-hand experience of 7.62x39 is very limited...




A, uh, 'friend' once told me that if you don't want to be making loud bangs, deer still fall down real good with a .45ACP JHP through the ribs

Another mate has a Winchester 94 in 44 with a suppressor, REAL quite, just the noise of the hammer then WHACK as the bulllet hits.

[jrandom]

Another mate has a Winchester 94 in 44 with a suppressor, REAL quite, just the noise of the hammer then WHACK as the bulllet hits.

Is that .44 Magnum? I wouldn't mind trading the .45 in for a .44 mag carbine. Mmmm... I thunked .44 mag was usually loaded supersonic, though? Your description sounds just like what I get out of the Marlin with .45ACP loads at 850fps. I can explode apples from the porch in the backyard with it all day long and not bother the neighbours...

[scumdog]

Is that .44 Magnum? I wouldn't mind trading the .45 in for a .44 mag carbine. Mmmm... I thunked .44 mag was usually loaded supersonic, though? Your description sounds just like what I get out of the Marlin with .45ACP loads at 850fps. I can explode apples from the porch in the backyard with it all day long and not bother the neighbours...

From memory it was downloaded 44 mag, the only let down was the noise of working the lever, an auto would have been better, it's one of those catch-22 situations, the lever-action was almost totally quiet if you only fired the one shot, if you missed the deer (or there were others there) they heard the action being worked, with the auto you had no choice, you had the rattle of the action being cycled anyway but at least you could remain motionless and possibly get off another quick shot.

[geoffm]

You could import one privately if it had appropriate mods to disable fully-automatic operation. Then it'd just be an E-class MSSA.

I wouldn't fancy your chances of getting a "permit to import" from the police commissioner. They bassically won't issue them for MSSAs, which is why AR15s are pushing $10k each - or 2-3 times their US price.
Even getting a permit for bringing in E-cat bits can be dubious.
Geoff

[geoffm]

The military is looking at a new smaller capacity cartridge,anybody got any info? not sure if it's a shorter case or what.

The 6.8mm Remington. A short magnum type case with around 129gr bullets. Flatter shooting, longer range, still feeds in the M16 with a new upper. Supposed to be quite good, without the kick and weight of the 0.308.
Geoff