Would you change the 250 law?

**jeremysprite** · 27th November 2006, 16:50

If we could decide on whether or not to change the law so that >250's can be ridden on a learner's/restricted license, would you want it? I know everyone complains about the 250 pricings, but would you rather ride an ER-5 or an NSR? (I know what I'd like)

**kiwifruit** · 27th November 2006, 16:55

The law is an ass, in this case.
I think a weight / hp restriction is far more sensible.

**gamgee** · 27th November 2006, 16:58

it should be a truely graduated system, whereing, learners licence must ride 250cc single or twin cylinder 4 strokes, and restricted can ride anything up to 400cc

**Qkchk:Me** · 27th November 2006, 17:00

Ever seen a 6ft3 guy ride a CBR250 or a cramped up NSR? I think the HP/Kg is a sensible soultion. Why can a Learner ride a CBR250R but not a ER500 even tho the CBR prob has more grunt?

**mynameis** · 27th November 2006, 17:09

Originally Posted by kiwifruit

The law is an ass, in this case.
I think a weight / hp restriction is far more sensible.

And who would find out the actual HP of a bike and how??

Like all bikes run at the max horsepower stated and literally every dealer in the country has a dyno run machine and it's like $5 to get one done.

This prevails the current sensible option which is in place now which is cc rating.

mynameis

**jeremysprite** · 27th November 2006, 17:10

Originally Posted by Qkchk

Why can a Learner ride a CBR250R but not a ER500 even tho the CBR prob has more grunt?

Just 'cause the laws been that way for a long time. I agree, license exemptions are 'often' granted for weight/height issues, but do you think the receiver of said exemption rides a nice, gutless bike? No, they buy a ZX-7R, (aye Gremlin?)

And yeah, the RR has more grunt than an er-5

**jeremysprite** · 27th November 2006, 17:15

Originally Posted by mynameis

And who would find out the actual HP of a bike and how??

Just off the manafacturer's specs. In Aus they also exclude certain bikes for learners -NSR, RGV, TZR, - can't remember if they exclude the sports inline 4's, like the CBR RR etc.

**hXc** · 27th November 2006, 17:16

It's a stupid law, the way we have it. But really, with our government and police force, there isn't much else to do. I don't know how they do it in Aussie or where else the law is like that, but here, it wouldn't be an easy thing to police.

Although, I've had people who ride bikes, and cops too, comment on how light my Spada feels. A common response is "Geez, this is light for a 600." Hmmm, well it's a 250, but the cops and most others don't know that. People do get away with riding 400's or whatever else on a L/R lisence, because the cops fail to look at the bike model/size on the rego, only the date.

**hXc** · 27th November 2006, 17:17

Originally Posted by jeremysprite

Just off the manafacturer's specs.

And that would prove anything how? Manufacturer's specs are often wrong. And each bike will be different, with an aftermarket pipe, or high k's, or how it's been ridden. It would have to be dyno tuned, which isn't cheap and isn't feasible.

**James Deuce** · 27th November 2006, 17:18

Power to weight ratio is a much better plan for deciding what bikes are learner "safe". The current cc rating law means that you end up with manufacturers squeezing every last drop from an engine making them peaky, which usually translates to more difficult to ride than something that makes smooth progressive power from nowhere.

A 650cc bike making 40HP usually makes 100 - 150% of the peak torque of a 250cc bike making 40HP, meaning that the generally larger populace, much larger than when the law was introduced, can buy a bike that doesn't feel like an aneamic weed whacker to ride. When I were a lad, two strokes ruled because they not only felt quick to ride, they WERE quick within the parameters of the day.

It certainly opens up the learner market and would finally get rid of the almost despotic hold 10-15 year old bikes have on the "performance" learner market. Sid and Mabel would be able to buy new, matching 883 Sportsters when the kids move out of home (finally).

Not all states in Aus subscribe to the KW/KG rule either. I think it's only NSW and Queensland.

**kiwifruit** · 27th November 2006, 17:19

Originally Posted by mynameis

And who would find out the actual HP of a bike and how??

Like all bikes run at the max horsepower stated and literally every dealer in the country has a dyno run machine and it's like $5 to get one done.

This prevails the current sensible option which is in place now which is cc rating.

mynameis

From the manufacturers specs, it won't be higher thats for sure!

**James Deuce** · 27th November 2006, 17:21

Originally Posted by hXc

And that would prove anything how? Manufacturer's specs are often wrong. And each bike will be different, with an aftermarket pipe, or high k's, or how it's been ridden. It would have to be dyno tuned, which isn't cheap and isn't feasible.

It's very easy to do actually hXc. Ban aftermarket pipes (I know I've got one, but I didn't actually NEED it) as the manufacturers tend to know what they are doing in that realm.

Fuel injection and electronic ignition is becoming the fuel system standard. Again very easy to see if it has been dicked around with.

The law would apply to new motorcycles sold at such and such date, and I believe it would be hugely advantageous to motorcycling as a whole. More choice = more motorcyclists.

**jeremysprite** · 27th November 2006, 17:21

Originally Posted by hXc

And that would prove anything how? Manufacturer's specs are often wrong. And each bike will be different, with an aftermarket pipe, or high k's, or how it's been ridden. It would have to be dyno tuned, which isn't cheap and isn't feasible.

As far as I know, they just have a list of bikes that are/aren't allowed to ride as learners. No idea how they police it, probably just the fact of no insurance if you crash. That deters a lot of people.

**James Deuce** · 27th November 2006, 17:26

Just to wind Ixion up, compulsory 3rd party insurance in Aus tends to help with the application of the LAMs laws.

The list is actually a positive list in that it lists the bikes you can ride, and includes a lot of venerable Brit/Euro/US iron. Paul in NZ's Triumph would be learner legal in NSW.

**mynameis** · 27th November 2006, 17:28

Originally Posted by jeremysprite

Just off the manafacturer's specs. In Aus they also exclude certain bikes for learners -NSR, RGV, TZR, - can't remember if they exclude the sports inline 4's, like the CBR RR etc.

If you take a sample of 500 CBR 250 RR's and 500 ZXR 250 more than 900 will have less than 40 hp.

Originally Posted by hXc

And that would prove anything how? Manufacturer's specs are often wrong. And each bike will be different, with an aftermarket pipe, or high k's, or how it's been ridden. It would have to be dyno tuned, which isn't cheap and isn't feasible.

Couldn't agress less.