OK - wat the f@ck is going on??

[Maha]

As for laying your bike down - don't do it - why crash to avoid a crash? Stay on the bike to the bitter end.

Really Noel?....isnt it better to kick the bike away (which CaN be replaced) than hit a solid object?.
You will slide/roll whatever, on the road and stop way sooner than the bike (which CaN be replaced).
Seen it at Paeroa, rider goes down (for whatever reason) and the bike hits the bails and he picks it up seconds later, wont happen like that with us, granted, but staying alive is paramount to me and i will hopefully have the balls to kick the bike away (which CaN be replaced) if it ever happens to me.

[Blondini]

Well that would be ME......
On Julie's VERY first lesson...... getting her to go up from riding in first gear to second gear and me saying "You now have to go faster" cos after all Julie couldnt forever to continue to ride in first gear on the roads.
Then I had her going into third gear.... she took it up to fourth gear all on her own that day... and got to 40km per hour.

So if that is bad......... then have a go at me.

But she is now riding faster than 40km per hour as she has been out on Old North Road with me and out on the Mentor ride on Wednesday night.
Doing 70km which is within her license restrictions.
Julie is also doing the required speed limit around town now (50km)

If and when she is comfortable she will allow herself to ride faster.... and only then.


If others have told her to go faster.... then that has nought to do with me and helping Julie out there learning to ride.

OI you can not take all that .I have heard it on several occasions

[The Stranger:Me]

Really Noel?....isnt it better to kick the bike away (which CaN be replaced) than hit a solid object?.
You will slide/roll whatever, on the road and stop way sooner than the bike (which CaN be replaced).
Seen it at Paeroa, rider goes down (for whatever reason) and the bike hits the bails and he picks it up seconds later, wont happen like that with us, granted, but staying alive is paramount to me and i will hopefully have the balls to kick the bike away (which CaN be replaced) if it ever happens to me.

Would be a rare instance where you rolling or sliding on the ground will stop or slow quicker than your bike under brakes. Furthermore, you loose directional control. if you are sliding or rolling along the road you have no ability to control your circumtances. You can't avoid that Mack truck coming the other way, you can't select what or where you are going to impact. You loose the possibility of say a quick countersteer around an object after having scrubbed off sufficient speed.

Ok there are no absolutes and every case is going to be different and no doubt there is an exception or two. But I am talking general principals.

Can't really comment on the example you state at Paeroa, but it is possible they were in a corner and braking was either not possible or what sent him down, in which case you are going to part comapny with the bike anyway.

If you can, stand the bike up if necessary, and get on the brakes. modern brakes are well designed for stopping. Were leather or nylon better, I am sure they would use them.

[Ixion]

Difference betwene road and racetrack. On the track they don't have Mack trucks going the other way, and you can usually assume that whoever is behind you has some intelligence.

It's not hitting the ground I'd be worried about , it's what would hit me once I was down. Having said that , I'll take the ditch or bushes (or hedges) anytime in preference to hitting a vehicle.

[Motu]

However, due to the thread being pulled that discussed the situations surrounding the recent crashes, added to the amount of attention a fatality recieves, I'm left to allow my imagination to reconstruct events. The problem however is that imagination can be worse than reality, where actuals, tastefully presented, can provide some level of corrective thought and perhaps closure.

Being the cold hearted bastard that I am,I would of prefered to of seen a thread saying ''this is what happend...the cold hard facts'' No judgements,no guessing.Two seperate accidents,no mixing it all up.Say what happened and close the thread...discuss it somewhere else.All this drama because most people don't know what the hell happened,and those that do know (apart from Quasi) not fronting up.Just my view.

Laying it down? Definatly,done it plenty of times.Know when to bail...before you go down,or on the ground.A bike is a heavy sharp projectile,and when it's not got two bits of rubber on the ground it's pretty uncontrolable.I don't want to be where it reaches a stopping point,I don't want to be involved in it's crash....I'll take my chances on my own thank you.

[SPman]

Being the cold hearted bastard that I am,I would of prefered to of seen a thread saying ''this is what happend...the cold hard facts'' No judgements,no guessing.Two seperate accidents,no mixing it all up.Say what happened and close the thread...discuss it somewhere else.All this drama because most people don't know what the hell happened,and those that do know (apart from Quasi) not fronting up.Just my view.

And mine.

A bike is a heavy sharp projectile,and when it's not got two bits of rubber on the ground it's pretty uncontrolable.

Paul knows all about that one.

[terbang]

Beyond, CaN and Ixion I couldn't agree more with your comments however I only have one small issue.

The accident was a freak. Freaks happen, that is the way of the world.

I just can't accept accidents being a freak, except perhaps lying in bed and you get struck by lightning on a sunny day or similar. There is a number of reasons for any accident and some of them very human, human errors associated with attitude and behaviour. A lot of aviation research goes into preventing smoking holes in the ground and the basic concepts can relate to any sort of incident or accident.
Ponder this:

Accidents rarely result from a single failure or action. They result from a combination of things - for example, maintenance failure or crew failure. In other words, accidents result from a chain of events that make them difficult to analyze but also provide multiple opportunities to prevent them. Remove any link in the chain and the accident is avoided.

Here are also a few things that Aviation has identified in aircrews that have led to accidents. Though I don't wish to hang any of these on recent events but rather to educate on what is often the norm here...

Hazardous Attitudes
1. Antiauthority ("Don't tell me!") - Don't like anyone telling him/her what to do. Resentful of rules & regulations.
2. Impulsivity ("Do something - do it now!") - Need to do something, anything, quickly. Don't stop to think about better alternatives.

3. Invulnerability ("It won't happen to me.") - Accidents happen to other people, not to me. Therefore, I can take chances.

4. Macho ("I can do it.") - Always trying to prove themselves better than others. Take risks and try to impress others. Yes, women, too!

5. Resignation ("What's the use?") - I really can't make a difference. It's going to happen anyway, why bother? Leave actions to others.

I certainly don't want to see our past time regulated any more and definitely not this site. I am a firm believer that "education over legislation" is the answer. Something that this site does very well on a daily basis.

[Big Dog]

Just my 2c
If the mods were to accept liability for anything either posted or pulled on this site then this would first need to be a fully moderated paysite.

This is after all a public site that is owned by a private individual, and moderated by a collective of volunteers.

Some people on this site need to read posts before they reply to them.
Some people on this site need to read posts before they submit them.
Some people on this site, myself included, need to pull our heads in at times.

That is forum posting.
I agree that these events offer an opportunity to remind ourselves of the risks we take and accept resposibility for them, but there are plenty of things that have been posted this site over the years that are insensitive inaccurate or even illegal.
I would like to know what happened and how.
I would like to think at least one member on this site has gained from this expereince but not at the expense of the survivors or ultimately the site.

[White trash]

Being the cold hearted bastard that I am,I would of prefered to of seen a thread saying ''this is what happend...the cold hard facts'' No judgements,no guessing.Two seperate accidents,no mixing it all up.Say what happened and close the thread...discuss it somewhere else.All this drama because most people don't know what the hell happened,and those that do know (apart from Quasi) not fronting up.Just my view.

Laying it down? Definatly,done it plenty of times.Know when to bail...before you go down,or on the ground.A bike is a heavy sharp projectile,and when it's not got two bits of rubber on the ground it's pretty uncontrolable.I don't want to be where it reaches a stopping point,I don't want to be involved in it's crash....I'll take my chances on my own thank you.

How's this sound.

"No one's fronting up because no one KNOWS what happened." Quasi included. No one saw it, just a heap of people on the scene for the aftermath.

I'm of the oppinion that this needs to be discussed, but not while there's a PROFFESIONAL investigation underway.

I simply can't believe that people want to flog a dead horse. The thread THIS thread stemed from has been pulled. No amount of debate will have it reinstated. Live with it.

If you can't, find another forum to populate.

I hear www.stuntusa.com is recruiting kiwis......

[Motu]

How's this sound.

"No one's fronting up because no one KNOWS what happened." .....

So,ok - let's start from there.The basis of all the shit that's gone down is the cover ups,the closed mouths,the decisions made behind the scenes,it's been a total fuck up from the very start.So no one knows what happened - how about someone say that,stop all the supposition.There has been total control - but no guidance system.How about some honesty? That's pretty fucking basic in my world.

[SPman]

I am a firm believer that "education over legislation" is the answer. Something that this site does very well on a daily basis.

Its the difference between aviation - "lets find out what happened, in a no culpability way, to see if we can prevent it happening again", vs a legal/road transport system of - "what went wrong - who can we blame - who can we charge", style of thinking!

And thats what is fucking up the whole policing / road safety argument in most countries - here in particular, viz, charging the pilot in the Palmerston North crash! What a joke - if it wasn't so serious!

no one KNOWS what happened

As Motu said, if that was the case - a simple statement of "No one knows exactly what happened,there are guesses, but it is all supposition at this stage. It is being investigated and people will know when the investigation has been completed", I'm sure, would have sufficed.

[DEATH_INC.]

So,ok - let's start from there.The basis of all the shit that's gone down is the cover ups,the closed mouths,the decisions made behind the scenes,it's been a total fuck up from the very start.So no one knows what happened - how about someone say that,stop all the supposition.There has been total control - but no guidance system.How about some honesty? That's pretty fucking basic in my world.

Here is the simple truth (bruce and Daryl).
The FIRST on the scene was Draco and a guy in a cage. Neither saw what happened, nor could have anyone else. No-one REALLY knows what happened, so it's all speculation.
End of story.

[SpankMe]

The blind speculation about this particular accident has ended.

Someone should start a thread about general group ride etiquette.

[Motu]

Here is the simple truth (bruce and Daryl).
The FIRST on the scene was Draco and a guy in a cage. Neither saw what happened, nor could have anyone else. No-one REALLY knows what happened, so it's all speculation.
End of story.

Wow - and it's taken this long and thousands of posts before someone says what should of been said right at the beginning! You can shut the gate now,the horses have fled,bred,and come back home.

Mother knows best,she will tell you all you need to know.....but somehow my mental picture of Mother has a toothbrush mustache and a seriously unsettling hairdoo.