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Thread: Lend-Lease nightmare ends for UK

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fish View Post
    Sorry, I'm missing something here.
    This is from the Atlantic Charter.

    Fourth, they will endeavor, with due respect for their existing obligations, to further the enjoyment by all States, great or small, victor or vanquished, of access, on equal terms, to the trade and to the raw materials of the world which are needed for their economic prosperity;


    Roosevelt was keen on America entering the war but there was strong opposition to this from Congress and the American public in general, who saw Nazi Germany and Hitler as the only opposition to Communism in Europe. Operation Barbaross had commenced in June 1941. Bearing in mind that German forces were on the outskirts of Lennigrad in December of '41 (at the time of sighning of the charter) Roosevelt was hardly in a position to openly supply arms to the British at this time when it looked as if Britain may lose the war.

    Without the fourth clause and the reduction of trade barriers supplies would have never been supplied. Britain had no choice but to accede to the demands of the Americans. Now if that is not holding a gun to their heads I don't know what is.

    Skyryder
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  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyryder View Post
    This is from the Atlantic Charter... Now if that is not holding a gun to their heads I don't know what is.
    As far as I can tell, you're quite wrong.

    The American Lend-Lease Act was passed on 11 March 1941.

    The Atlantic Charter was 'issued as a joint declaration' on 14 August 1941. It expressed the results of a conference between Roosevelt and Churchill during Churchill's visit to the USA which commenced on 9 August 1941.

    From what source do you derive your apparent assertion that a point in the Atlantic Charter had been previously agreed to as a prerequisite to Lend-Lease?

    Quite apart from that, I fail to see how the very broad and generic free-trade ideal expressed (amongst other things) in the Charter constituted a material disadvantage to the Commonwealth.

    It seems that your cynicism has left you with an inaccurate historical picture.
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  3. #18
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    Fish, Churchill had a political obligation to present the Lend-Lease Act in a positive historical light. At the time it enabled the UK to concentrate on developing a military answer to Hitler.

    Irrespective of how the Act was intended on both sides of the Atlantic, the punitive repayment schedule left Britain unable to maintain it's position in World affairs post-WWII or its Colonial obligations. The time of Empire may have passed but when you have no cash to run it, the process tends to accelerate.

    This has been acknowledged as a probable definite act on the part of the US as they realised that they now had the capacity dominate World trade. This can be demonstrated economically in the shift from Pounds Sterling as the International trade standard to the greenback.

    As Skyryder has noted, the corporate movers and shakers in the US had definite strong Fascist leanings to the point of almost entering into a coup process. The majority of the Republican party had pro-Hitler, isolationism as a core value, though Wendell Wilkie did successfully undermine the political sway of this group throuhg 1940-41.

    http://coat.ncf.ca/our_magazine/links/53/53-index.html

    The British Labour Government that took power in July 1945 did themselves no favours by insisting that bilateral bulk goods deals were out and insisted on trading in money only. The trade economists lost out to the banking economists at a time when World economic power was shifting away from the UK. With Europe in ruins there was no European trade to provide a bulwark against the shift.

    From a more personal perspective, this meant that long serving professional military people like my grandfather were looking at receiving Government funded housing sometime in the mid-late 1950s. A great deal of people migration to other parts of the Commonwealth and the US left Britain without key expertise in many, many areas, purely because they couldn't cope with living with their families in a B&B situation for years on end.

    There's little nuggets in this transcript

    http://www.trumanlibrary.org/oralhist/coppockj.htm

    that show that the US made it an economic priority to establish high loan repayments for Great Britain. Remember that these are on top of WW1 loans that GB is STILL paying and because of the high interest rate is likely to never ever repay fully. This is despite the fact that GB was utterly without cash reserves at the end of WWII and this fact was known to the US and at no time was a deferred payment plan offered.

    Instead top priority was given to the Marshal Plan and the reconstruction of Western Europe. Which was a damn fine Humanitarian and Economic idea, but it left "Allies" utterly in the lurch. Unlike WWI where the theatre of war was mostly Western Europe and the Colonial interests and therefore trade interests were largely untouched, WWII devastated the UK's main trade sphere in the Far East. Again this was not unknown to the US and was used to help establish the US as the main component of the Capitalist World, as it had been immediately post-WW1.


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  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim2 View Post
    little nuggets in this transcript...
    Interesting stuff.

    It seems that the combination of Truman being a cunt and the post-war British government being a bunch of stiff-necked trade-union-riddled pinkos resulted in a number of dealings that were very much against the spirit of what Roosevelt and Churchill came up with.

    I guess it's a sad truth that good intentions are often perverted by selfish and evil men, and that the ultimate outcome of the Allies' economic efforts during the war was a New World Order of heavy-handed American unilateralism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim2 View Post
    Churchill had a political obligation to present the Lend-Lease Act in a positive historical light...
    Which I believe was correct of him. Viewed in context, it was positive. His written history ceased with the day of Japan's surrender, and his late-'50s epilogue was concerned almost entirely with the ascendence of the USSR and the outbreak of the Cold War.
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  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fish View Post
    As far as I can tell, you're quite wrong.

    The American Lend-Lease Act was passed on 11 March 1941.

    The Atlantic Charter was 'issued as a joint declaration' on 14 August 1941. It expressed the results of a conference between Roosevelt and Churchill during Churchill's visit to the USA which commenced on 9 August 1941.

    From what source do you derive your apparent assertion that a point in the Atlantic Charter had been previously agreed to as a prerequisite to Lend-Lease?

    Quite apart from that, I fail to see how the very broad and generic free-trade ideal expressed (amongst other things) in the Charter constituted a material disadvantage to the Commonwealth.

    It seems that your cynicism has left you with an inaccurate historical picture.
    You are right in that the Lend lease Act was approved by Congress prior to the Atlantic Charter. However the context that I was referring to can be found in the Destroyers for Bases agreement of 1940. This agreement must be seen as a forward to the Atlantic Charter. If that is not the case then why would America seek bases in British held territories? My cynacism is based on an accurate understanding of a 'historical' military involvment on overseas expansion. Throughout history, navel deployment and their operational procedures have been based on trade. The Falklands war would be one of the few exceptions to this.

    There was more going on in Whitehouse than mere documents show.

    Skyryder





    However it was not untill October
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  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyryder View Post
    There was more going on in Whitehouse than mere documents show.
    Unlike now, our good friend bush looks like he has his own theme song going on in that little head of his

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