Exclusion of Motards from F1, F2 & F3: Good or bad?

**Buddha#81:Me** · 20th January 2007, 21:23

Originally Posted by That Guy

Sorry! I came in far too late. Nobody likes a gate crasher

Nah seemed you crashed the party with a dozen piss under your arm.

**slowpoke** · 20th January 2007, 23:20

Aren't all the controls already in place?

I mean, if someone is riding in a dangerous manner then shouldn't they be black flagged? By dangerous I mean lacking the ability to take repeatable, consistent corner lines. I don't care if they back it in, but if that's their thing then they must be able to do it consistently, none of this ragged edge who knows where the fugg they're going type stuff. As a comparison, if a 125GP rider took wildly different lines lap by lap then they would soon be given a bollocking so why is so much slack given to the all over the shop backing it in type riding?

For me the issue isn't about the machines, it's about the style of riding. Sure, if backing it in works for you then go right ahead but just make sure that riders are adequately skilled to be able to do it in a reasonably consistent manner. And NO, the racetrack is NOT the place to learn basic riding technique.

Maybe we are just too lax with giving out race licenses. To get my race license in Western Australia I had to attend what was called Novice and Advanced Racecraft courses. These were virtually supervised trackdays run by the WA Motorcycle Racing Club where experienced road racers would offer very basic advice on racing lines, technique, machine prep and/or setup. Nothing too intense, just general chat's as the day went along. You could only gain your license after completing both track days unscathed and after being assessed on the track. The assessment wasn't so much about speed (hey, I got through so that's obvious!) but about being able to take consistent racing lines and the ability to pass and be passed in a controlled manner. The key word is CONTROL: if you can't take consistent lines then you shouldn't be on a race track, it doesn't matter if you are talking motards or superbikes the same thing applies.

Getting off topic for a bit, as a pussy road rider (wannabe racer) with virtually no dirt riding experience and very limited racing experience I've recently slapped down some coin on a motard in a desperate attempt to improve my skill level.

It only took one squirt over the 'takas to realize that these things are fuggin' awesome road/race machines even when ridden in the traditional both feet on the pegs style. Braking and handling are in a completely different league to any dedicated road bike I've ever ridden...to the point where I reckon I'd probably be quicker over the 'taka's on the retard than I would be on my R1, not that I really push it. (Er, maybe that says more about the rider than the bikes but that's another issue...)

All this begs the question why don't manufacturers make dedicated road bikes with similar spec's: 110kg's, 60hp, ultra-simple construction, good suspension and brakes? It's a bone basic formula that would have bikes flyin' out the door.

**NordieBoy** · 21st January 2007, 06:21

Originally Posted by slowpoke

All this begs the question why don't manufacturers make dedicated road bikes with similar spec's: 110kg's, 60hp, ultra-simple construction, good suspension and brakes? It's a bone basic formula that would have bikes flyin' out the door.

They do/did...
Gilera Saturno, Suzuki Goose, Honda GB, That Yam with the SR500 engine etc...

Some very nice looking/handling bikes and they only sold in limited numbers.

People didn't appreciate what they could do.

**Rashika** · 21st January 2007, 06:58

Originally Posted by slowpoke

Maybe we are just too lax with giving out race licenses. To get my race license in Western Australia I had to attend what was called Novice and Advanced Racecraft courses.

agreed! I would love to have had somehing like this to do before my first outing on the track...woulda helped with the nerves at the very least, but 'feeling' as well as 'being' well prepared (as determined by racers, not just ourselves) before racing would be a big bonus. I think the thing that helped for me is 20 years riding a pushie on the road, I'm used to people doing the stupidest things in front of me, passing me crazily as well as suddenly stopping in front of me. The racetrack seems even normal in comparison at times.
I've seen a few racers just about take out experienced racers due to their inexperienced actions...suddenly veering across the track to stop their bike at the side is one I can think of, let alone taking unusual lines.
Training before being allowed to race should be compulsary in NZ...but its not.

Originally Posted by slowpoke

All this begs the question why don't manufacturers make dedicated road bikes with similar spec's: 110kg's, 60hp, ultra-simple construction, good suspension and brakes? It's a bone basic formula that would have bikes flyin' out the door.

Cos people being people think that more hp is always better than less....60hp is fiddlesticks in todays numbers.

**TonyB** · 21st January 2007, 07:29

Originally Posted by slowpoke

All this begs the question why don't manufacturers make dedicated road bikes with similar spec's: 110kg's, 60hp, ultra-simple construction, good suspension and brakes? It's a bone basic formula that would have bikes flyin' out the door.

Another bloody good post, and I completely agree with everything you said. As for the bit I quote above, I have been thinking exactly the same thing. Why ARE road bikes so heavy when a KTM or Husky or whatever does such a brilliant job at getting around real roads and NZ's race tracks so well?? I understand that the frame must be stiff etc for high speed stability when cornering, but then an MX bike has to be able to absorb heavy landings, bumps and several offs without complaint, so they must be pretty bloody stiff too- or do they just flex alot? I have been told by a suspension specialist that the suspension on even modern sports bikes is primative and low budget compared to a dirt bike, so you're not winning there either when you fork out for a road bike.

Is it just a case of a road bike being a standard machine, built and sold to a budget, while a Motard is a specialist competition machine? So the fairest comparison would be an RS125 or RS250??

**gav** · 21st January 2007, 08:43

Depends if you want to service your road bike every 6 hours or so, I guess....
Think Motorcycling Canty do a reasonable job if you're a novice, if its your first time on the track, will spend extra time with you and coach and monitor your riding and lines, and explain flags etc.

**slowpoke** · 21st January 2007, 08:45

Originally Posted by NordieBoy

They do/did...
Gilera Saturno, Suzuki Goose, Honda GB, That Yam with the SR500 engine etc...

Some very nice looking/handling bikes and they only sold in limited numbers.

People didn't appreciate what they could do.

I'm not sure if anyone has already produce some spec's but this might give people an idea of why the motards are so effective and why a dedicated GP bike will have trouble getting past them.

A Honda RS125 is 62kg and 45 hp with a narrow spread of power
A husaberg 650 is 112kg and 60hp with a broad spread of power

It's similar to the motogp/500 gp cross over period when the lighter, less powerful 500's were competitive in qualifying but nowhere in most races, because if they got baulked even slightly they were going backwards in a hurry.

It'll be a shame if we end up losing the GP bikes as there are fewer suitable classes to race them in. They are pure examples of the absolute bare minimum required to get around a race track in the shortest possible time.

Back to my wee thread hijack about simple high performance road bikes that are conspicuous by their absence: it's not really a fair comparison due to capacities etc but even the lightest of those simple bikes listed above by Nordieboy is over 30kg's heavier, and the most powerful is still down 20 + hp and they've all got budget suspension, frames and brakes compared to say an off the showroom floor Husaberg 650 with it's White Power suspension, Berringer brakes, chrome moly frame etc.

You need to be thinking of something like an FXR150 sized bike (which is still 6kg heavier than the Husaberg!) with 65hp at the back wheel with top notch suspension and brakes. Who wouldn't have fun commuting on something like that?

Righto, I'm off to bolt a set of clip ons onto my 'berg and hacksaw 6" outta the suspension.......

**Goblin** · 21st January 2007, 17:11

Have just watched footage from Wanganui over and over to see exactly WHERE and HOW Motards take different lines than the other bikes and I'll be buggered if I can see any difference at all! Even the bloody commentator had a go about the "Different lines" the Motards take. I saw more skidding and backing into corners from the top 3 in Supersport and Superbikes than in the Motard race.
I'll be

**NordieBoy** · 21st January 2007, 17:50

Originally Posted by slowpoke

Back to my wee thread hijack about simple high performance road bikes that are conspicuous by their absence: it's not really a fair comparison due to capacities etc but even the lightest of those simple bikes listed above by Nordieboy is over 30kg's heavier, and the most powerful is still down 20 + hp and they've all got budget suspension, frames and brakes compared to say an off the showroom floor Husaberg 650 with it's White Power suspension, Berringer brakes, chrome moly frame etc.

Wellll...
The GB1 in the 3rd pic was powered by a Gilera 750 with 77 hp and was built to deal to the Ducati SuperMono.

**Goblin** · 21st January 2007, 17:51

Now I see it....the different lines are IN THE DIRT SECTION!

**Crasherfromwayback** · 21st January 2007, 19:10

Originally Posted by Goblin

Have just watched footage from Wanganui over and over to see exactly WHERE and HOW Motards take different lines than the other bikes and I'll be buggered if I can see any difference at all! Even the bloody commentator had a go about the "Different lines" the Motards take. I saw more skidding and backing into corners from the top 3 in Supersport and Superbikes than in the Motard race.
I'll be

That's because I've no doubt they were only showing the motards that were at the 'pointy' end of the feild! As in.....that's right....the fast ones!
Going about their business.....racing the FAST way round Wanganui......not getting in the way (if they were sharing with F3) of the 'proper' racers!

**TonyB** · 21st January 2007, 21:12

So we come to an important question: is F3 for bikes sold as ordinary road bikes (SV650 etc) or is it for purpose built race bikes (most motards)? F3 was created to allow bikes like RGV2500's and ZXR400's race... those bikes aren't made any more, hence the drama's when SV650's started turning up- do you keep with the old machinery, or phase them out and phase in the new stuff? It's common sense that you have to phase out the old stuff. BUT, now you have these Motard thingys- purpose built race bikes. Does it make more sense to move the class more towards them? Hey, you get an awesome bike right out of the box. Mind you, that Aprilia 550 costs more than $20K- thats not exactly 'entry level racing'.

EDIT: It should be noted that in the F3 race I saw today at Ruapuna, a ZXR400 won... the $22K Aprilia was well behind.

**NordieBoy** · 22nd January 2007, 09:49

Am thinking that Motards should run their own class if numbers allow.
If numbers don't allow then they could enter in say F3 but have to abide by the rules (no foot out) or get black flagged (face full of fly-spray in the pits afterward).

Or if a 'tarder wanted to race in F3 instead of motard then no cross entering into motards as well.

If a 'tard qualified for say "King of the Port" then they'd have to do the "no foot out" thang.

**scott411** · 22nd January 2007, 10:08

Originally Posted by NordieBoy

Am thinking that Motards should run their own class if numbers allow.
If numbers don't allow then they could enter in say F3 but have to abide by the rules (no foot out) or get black flagged (face full of fly-spray in the pits afterward).

Or if a 'tarder wanted to race in F3 instead of motard then no cross entering into motards as well.

If a 'tard qualified for say "King of the Port" then they'd have to do the "no foot out" thang.

i am gdtting sick of this foot out crap, when i stick my foot out on my motard bike it deos not sitck out any further than someones knee (ie out side the handle bar width) its not that bigger deal, if you get close ehough to run over my foot congrats cause you are going to have a handle bar in the guts while you do it, pic attached shows a whole lot of motard riders at wanganui with their feet out,

**NordieBoy** · 22nd January 2007, 11:43

Originally Posted by scott411

i am gdtting sick of this foot out crap, when i stick my foot out on my motard bike it deos not sitck out any further than someones knee (ie out side the handle bar width) its not that bigger deal, if you get close ehough to run over my foot congrats cause you are going to have a handle bar in the guts while you do it, pic attached shows a whole lot of motard riders at wanganui with their feet out,

Banning foot out just means there would be a bit less sliding the back in to square off the corner and keeps the racing lines more standard.