Exclusion of Motards from F1, F2 & F3: Good or bad?

[Denniso]

Sorry I forgot to thank all the road riders that don't have a problem with motards YOU ROCK !!!!!!!!

[Goblin]

Sorry I forgot to thank all the road riders that don't have a problem with motards YOU ROCK !!!!!!!!

You're welcome! We seem to be the minority.

[Denniso]

You're welcome! We seem to be the minority.

I'm not sure that you are a minority I think that the vocal ones may be the minority as at the track you always hear from the squeeky wheel not the other three that are happy

[Goblin]

....you always hear from the squeeky wheel not the other three that are happy

I took my training wheels off long ago.

[Rashika]

Sorry I forgot to thank all the road riders that don't have a problem with motards YOU ROCK !!!!!!!!

umm did you actually read this thread from the beginning? Most road riders (racing) DONT have a problem with Motards...
I'm guessing not (tho I could be wrong) cos then you would know most dont have an issue with motards, a lot ride both.
Its more of a question about SHOULD they have there own classes instead of sharing all the others? A damn good idea (IMHO) cos then maybe we MIGHT get to see them compete against their peers, instead of such a huge variety that there seems to be developing in f3 (for eg).

I'm not sure that you are a minority I think that the vocal ones may be the minority as at the track you always hear from the squeeky wheel not the other three that are happy

funnily enough, the only squeaky wheel at the Nelson st races WAS a motard rider (and only 1 of the many there) who objected to ONLY having 5 races (as it turned out) compared to 3 or less for the other classes (one class only had 1 race!)

Mind you just wasting my fingers cos the 'pro motard brigade' (seeing as you like to put everyone in their boxes) have already decided that the road racers hate them.

[idleidolidyll]

Sorry I forgot to thank all the road riders that don't have a problem with motards YOU ROCK !!!!!!!!

you're welcome

motards rock too

Here's a point for this argument:

I had a bad accident a few years ago, I broke my back. After a spinal op I was able to walk again and obviously ride my motorcycle again. However, there's no way at all that I could ever race in a motard race where some of the race is offroad.

Given that and given that I own a motard (previously the 640 now the 950), I would not be able to enter the motard only race and could only enter in F3 or in a motard race with no dirt section.

Should I be allowed to do so?

If the answer is yes, If I'm allowed to race a motard in F3, why shouldnt everyone whose bike qualifies?

[idleidolidyll]

I think you're right Ixion, it sounds more like tough cheese than a safety issue.

I reckon F3 will be all the poorer if there are no motards.

The problem in NZS is time and money. We don't have the sponsors to run top class events like GP racing where only 125's, 250's or GP1's are eligible and where we could run A classes and B classes.
We also don't have the time in a race weekend to have seperate classes for all sizes and styles of bikes.

By necessity we MUST mix the classes up or we will face alienating the core of racing in NZ; those people who are not sponsored and only own 1 bike to race.

That kinda happened early to mid eighties and because of that BEARs became a strong format. BEARs riders rode whatever they owned and old Nortons raced against new Ducatis etc with no complaints at all.
The best prize money in the country was on offer at the Sound of Thunder in the Sth Island and the most profit was made by the Corsair Club who ran it.

If the move to kick motards out of tyhe formula races gains ground we will face those same problems. How many in NZ can afford a REAL competitive 125 let alone a 250 or GP bike? What race meeting has the time to run more classes than we already have?

Hell, Wanganui was running about 90 mins late this year after just a few crashes. With more classes it'd be a nightmare!

[idleidolidyll]

The argument about how many races a rider can have smacks of jealousy rather than any real race issues.

If the bike meets the class specs and the rider pays the money, I reckon they should be able to ride in every class they're eligible for and if classes are to be limited, penalise the slow bikes not the motards.

If the 125 riders (for instance) want an exclusive 125 race they should take it upon themselves to draft more riders and bikes into it so they have the numbers to do so. Frankly, a 125 class with 5 bikes is a huge yawn.

Legislating a bike out of a class because it's popular is nonsense

[Toast]

well said and ya know what? that's a great way to learn to ride better in a race too
if all the bikes take the same lines and you follow them; you learn fuck all

I read a quote from an ex- world gp champ recently (somewhere in these forums I think), and he said that there is little point practicing the perfect line through a corner, as you'll only get to use it once or twice in a (20 lap) race.

Winning a time trial is a different thing to the racing that goes on with multiple bikes on track. Lines aren't always the same. If you get stuck behind someone it's annoying, but if you're faster, you've got to use your advantages to get past him.

The different lines argument is a load of arse to me. You even see times in a motoGP race where a rider has less corner speed and he changes his lines to block the rider following.

Think about it from a financial perspective too. More motards at the races means that race meets are more financially viable. Then, instead of PMCC hiring out the shitty old 1.1km or so track at Taupo, they might in future be able to afford to get the hot-shit international track.

I agree that if class numbers are too high, it will suck, but there are ways to allow motards in and still control the numbers.

[TonyB]

WRONG, a bucket has to take a fast line through corners to keep its speed up and any F2 rider worth a damn could fuck YOU up in a second by taking a line that killed your corner speed.

Which is exactly what the Motard riders are doing.

The thing is the impression I get is that many of them aren't doing it as part of clever race craft- I'm not talking about the guys that ride Motard regularly, more the dirt riders who fit their bikes out for a street race or big meeting. They are riding a very light bike with good brakes to get them braking deep into a corner and good torque to blast back out the other side. But in the middle of the corner they are using entirely the wrong technique- foot out, pushing the bike down into the corner and leaning out, ie making the bike and tyre work too hard- so their mid corner speed is crap. So they trip the road bikes up and then blast off using their torquey engines. THEY are having a great race, but anyone behind them on a near 200kg wet inline four 400 is caught in a bloody nightmare. Because there's not just one or two guys on dirt bikes buggering up their race, there are sometimes upwards of 10. Street races are often only 4 to 6 laps. If youre at Greymouth and your CBR400 gets stuck behind 5 or 6 modern dirt bikes which are lighter, and have powerful and flexible engines, you are going to have to be one hell of a good rider to get past them and still have any hope of a podium.

[dangerous]

I'm not sure that you are a minority I think that the vocal ones may be the minority as at the track you always hear from the squeeky wheel not the other three that are happy

ohh I think they are just look at the poll results.

Well Harden the fuck up! That's what racing is all about! If you're intimidated by the bigger bars, tallers bikes, foot out and all the rest of it then maybe you dont have what it takes to be a good racer.

LMFAO... you are so green girl, I cant wait till you arse off and relise that racing isent just a game, I sooner stay in one piece than harden up, thats just a silly girl remark... and im 1st to admit that I may not have what it takes to WIN but Ill tell you this... I have what it takes t be a good racer... and thats a racer that stays in one piece.

WRONG, a bucket has to take a fast line through corners to keep its speed up and any F2 rider worth a damn could fuck YOU up in a second by taking a line that killed your corner speed. Hell, they could do it just by intentionally slowing down in front of you then accelerating away. Smart racers understand ALL the options.

I think you need to see how the SI F4 guys ride, a smart rider wouldnt let that F2 bike get in front so it wouldnt be an issue.

Also, its not always about winning mate, once again down here we like to have fun and stay on top of the bike (unlike it seems NI riders) so we get back to the safty thing... Tards in formula

A) and if that is all you do every lap you've probably never won a race and may never do so.


B) If you've watched closely guys like Chrisa Haldane etc often have the rear wheel in the air under braking and slide out under power. They spend less time cranked over and more time on the throttle.

a) well thats were you are sadley wrong fella, I have and intend to do so yet again.
b) FFS mate, you need to come and watch us race... you will never say that we dont get a tad excited at times, we dont have the power to slid the back out thats a silly comparision, but I tell ya what we slid all over the show and many a time I have thoughty its all over Rover.

So what class where you in when you were racing against Motards then? Were you on your bucket or Kat?
And wouldnt the Kat be F1 not F2?

FFS, Im the shit stirer here Gav... but I cant resist (as you knew I wouldent) whats ya bloody point big fella?

Now... I have no problem racing with retards, it is fun like some say, however the numbers are getting to big and that becomes a safty thing, give them there own class like I have mine for F4 and post classic.

[idleidolidyll]

I read a quote from an ex- world gp champ recently (somewhere in these forums I think), and he said that there is little point practicing the perfect line through a corner, as you'll only get to use it once or twice in a (20 lap) race.

Winning a time trial is a different thing to the racing that goes on with multiple bikes on track. Lines aren't always the same. If you get stuck behind someone it's annoying, but if you're faster, you've got to use your advantages to get past him.

The different lines argument is a load of arse to me. You even see times in a motoGP race where a rider has less corner speed and he changes his lines to block the rider following.

Think about it from a financial perspective too. More motards at the races means that race meets are more financially viable. Then, instead of PMCC hiring out the shitty old 1.1km or so track at Taupo, they might in future be able to afford to get the hot-shit international track.

I agree that if class numbers are too high, it will suck, but there are ways to allow motards in and still control the numbers.

Spot on!
There are lots of 'fast' street riders who would never win a race because they have no idea how to get through race traffic (by taking different lines etc)

Stuff it up the inside, lose speed but fuck up the other guys exit line: seen it done all the time in pukka GP racing. One riders are never champions

[idleidolidyll]

Oops, typo

One LINE riders are never champions

[idleidolidyll]

dear dangerous,

all i can do is laugh hilariously

a bucket can keep an F2 bike behind ROTFLMFAO!!

Given equal riders that's utter nonsense

so ya reckon you're a winner but you whine that those darn motards take different lines?

how do you win WITHOUT taking different lines? If you have the answer don't bother sending it to me, send it to the factory teams, it's something they'll pay handsomely for

ROTFLMFAO!! You're funny

[idleidolidyll]

Which is exactly what the Motard riders are doing.

The thing is the impression I get is that many of them aren't doing it as part of clever race craft- I'm not talking about the guys that ride Motard regularly, more the dirt riders who fit their bikes out for a street race or big meeting. They are riding a very light bike with good brakes to get them braking deep into a corner and good torque to blast back out the other side. But in the middle of the corner they are using entirely the wrong technique- foot out, pushing the bike down into the corner and leaning out, ie making the bike and tyre work too hard- so their mid corner speed is crap. So they trip the road bikes up and then blast off using their torquey engines. THEY are having a great race, but anyone behind them on a near 200kg wet inline four 400 is caught in a bloody nightmare. Because there's not just one or two guys on dirt bikes buggering up their race, there are sometimes upwards of 10. Street races are often only 4 to 6 laps. If youre at Greymouth and your CBR400 gets stuck behind 5 or 6 modern dirt bikes which are lighter, and have powerful and flexible engines, you are going to have to be one hell of a good rider to get past them and still have any hope of a podium.

duh! that's called racing mate.
don't penalise people for making smarter choices than you
blocking lines are as valid in a race as slipstreaming, if ya can't beat them it's your problem not thiers