Graeme William Burton in custody

[Paul in NZ]

This site has a big population of "Monday morning quarterbacks" who are unembarrassed at publicising their 'expert' knowledge - especailly if it's 20-20 hindsight knowledge.

Worse that that...

We are happy to discuss all sorts of weapons suitable for dispatching the 'criminal' on the scene but lack the moral fibre to do the job officially. Why we would expect two GD constables (who did a bloody good job or at least secured a result which is the same thing) to do what we are too squeemish to do is beyond me.

I feel sorry for this guy - like dogs, I'm sure he was not born 'bad' but I'm also fairly certain that our society should not waste any more of our scant resources on him.

[jrandom]

I wonder if any of them watch Myth Busters?

I missed that one. Did the cover the old 'hydrostatic shock' chestnut, then? Or was it 'knockdown power'?

Didn't they shoot slabs of beef, or something?

There's a video on liveleak of a soldier getting shot in Iraq while wearing Level IV/V body armour. The bullet obviously doesn't penetrate, but he sure gets knocked on his arse before hopping up and scooting away.

The back of a handy envelope tells me that the kinetic energy of a 160 grain bullet at 3000fps is about the same as a 1500kg car at 10kph. Which would push you over if it smacked into you, but not quite send you flying backwards.

[sAsLEX]

Seems that for a sailor you know a lot about the the soldier weapons, you are turning it into another gun porn thread.

Team Defence force, Tri-Service, we aint that far separated no longer

Gun porn threads are the new beer threads.

Maybe we discuss this somewhere else over a nice laphroaig.....

Why we would expect two GD constables (who did a bloody good job or at least secured a result which is the same thing) to do what we are too squeemish to do is beyond me.

There where other options like AOS and STG that could of been utilised, people more trained to deal with the situation rather than beat cops.

[jrandom]

Why we would expect two GD constables (who did a bloody good job or at least secured a result which is the same thing) to do what we are too squeemish to do is beyond me.

I don't think it has much to do with squeamishness; rather, society's reluctance to use the death penalty is more to do with an acknowledgement of our justice system's fallability.

It's the rare person who will argue against the death penalty in the hypothetical instance of a perfect judiciary proving beyond doubt that someone is guilty of premeditated murder, and I would suggest that such people argue instinctively from their own insecurities and fears rather than anything recognisable as logic.

[Hitcher]

The Mythbusters' episode I saw they were endeavouring to shoot things underwater. Interestingly it was the weapons with the least muzzle velocity that were the most effective.

[jrandom]

There where other options like AOS and STG that could of been utilised...

Read the news reports - there were 25 AOS guys there at the time. Burton just happened to pop up in front of the two GD officers.

[James Deuce]

I missed that one. Did the cover the old 'hydrostatic shock' chestnut, then? Or was it 'knockdown power'?

Didn't they shoot slabs of beef, or something?

There's a video on liveleak of a soldier getting shot in Iraq while wearing Level IV/V body armour. The bullet obviously doesn't penetrate, but he sure gets knocked on his arse before hopping up and scooting away.

The back of a handy envelope tells me that the kinetic energy of a 160 grain bullet at 3000fps is about the same as a 1500kg car at 10kph. Which would push you over if it smacked into you, but not quite send you flying backwards.

Nope. They shot beef, they shot their dummy with every thing from handguns to a Barret from about 15m away. The Barret moved the dummy back 2 inches. They proved beyond a doubt that the flying backwards thing is a Hollywood invention, and discussed it with military personnel as well.

The guy fell over because his balance point shifted, not from the force of the bullet. They put a steel plate on the front of the dummy to make sure that the force was transferred to the dummy directly. The .50 round went through the plate and out through his spine. He moved two inches in the process.

Equal and opposite reactions. For the Dummy to fly back, the marksman would have to as well.

[jrandom]

The Mythbusters' episode I saw they were endeavouring to shoot things underwater.

Ever fired a .22 into a swimming pool?

[sAsLEX]

Didn't they shoot slabs of beef, or something?

Normally a ballistic gel.

[James Deuce]

The Mythbusters' episode I saw they were endeavouring to shoot things underwater. Interestingly it was the weapons with the least muzzle velocity that were the most effective.

Reflected in the adoption of subsonic firearms for US Special Forces troops who specialise in underwater ops.

[Hitcher]

It's the rare person who will argue against the death penalty in the hypothetical instance of a perfect judiciary proving beyond doubt that someone is guilty of premeditated murder, and I would suggest that such people argue instinctively from their own insecurities and fears rather than anything recognisable as logic.

Whereas I would argue that a "civilised" society deserves a justice system, rather than a revenge system, and that state-sanctioned murder has no place in restorative justice.

[jrandom]

They proved beyond a doubt that the flying backwards thing is a Hollywood invention, and discussed it with military personnel as well... The guy fell over because his balance point shifted, not from the force of the bullet.

Er well um. The point I'm trying to make is that the guy in the video definitely fell down as a result of the bullet hitting him. I mean, you see the same thing in boxing matches sometimes, and yes, of course it's just a matter of the impact toppling someone off balance rather than making them fly backwards.

We all have a fairly good intuitive understanding of what happens to a person when a car hits them at various speeds. If you run the KE numbers for cars versus bullets it quickly becomes apparent that any bullet having a similar effect is pure nonsense.

[doc]

Reflected in the adoption of subsonic firearms for US Special Forces troops who specialise in underwater ops.

I would imagine if they were using subsonic, it would be for covert purposes. Subsonic has very little power. It is not suitable for humame slaughter of pigs.

[sAsLEX]

I would imagine if they were using subsonic, it would be for covert purposes. Subsonic has very little power. It is not suitable for humame slaughter of pigs.

KE= 1/2 * m * v^2

so you use a bit fat bullet to get the power/energy required.

[James Deuce]

I would imagine if they were using subsonic, it would be for covert purposes. Subsonic has very little power. It is not suitable for humame slaughter of pigs.

http://www.hkpro.com/peleven.htm

A 7.62mm handgun.