The firearm thread

**jono035** · 21st June 2009, 13:15

Trademe are pretty rubbish to get in contact with.

Anyone who is concerned that this change is unjustified (I was looking at thumbhole stocks for my target rifle a week ago goddamnit) should really write a letter (on actual paper, printed or hand-written) and mail it to their local MP as well as the people above. Explain what they are actually doing and what the actual effect will be, calmly and clearly. E-mails get ignored.

ouch · 22nd June 2009, 20:45

Originally Posted by jono035

Trademe are pretty rubbish to get in contact with.

Anyone who is concerned that this change is unjustified (I was looking at thumbhole stocks for my target rifle a week ago goddamnit) should really write a letter (on actual paper, printed or hand-written) and mail it to their local MP as well as the people above. Explain what they are actually doing and what the actual effect will be, calmly and clearly. E-mails get ignored.

Hi Jono,

Was not my auction!

He has added these comments:
Just in case you would like to know,put this in it original stock and it is ok. From the 8th of June any semi auto with this tye of stock is classed as MSA which is E cat . Dont worry about what Guncity does worry about yourself. Check POLICE they will advise you. oldie3 (200 ) 6:42 pm, Sun 21 Jun
Thanks for that i havnt heard about the change can change back . How stupid all it is a clipped on piece of plastic it dosnt change the rifles rate of fire. 7:15 pm, Sun 21 Jun
Yes I Kow it sounds stupid a little bit different with .22s but clip any magazine more than 7 shot into into an A cat centre fire and it imediatley becomes an E cat. This new law is realy to pacify Namby Pambies like Phillip Alpers etc or we would have no guns at all. I hope he reads this as he was one at school. oldie3 (200 ) 8:35 pm, Sun 21 Jun
Im sure all those with no gun lience will abide with the law change this could be a new tui add YEH RIGHT. 8:41 pm, Sun 21 Jun

There are still plenty of auctions for Reclassified E Cat rifles and stocks on Trademe and on gun citys site there are many new E Cats advertised as A Cat.

I have heard Rob Woods In Christchurch has had this issue before the courts and won, does anyone have any info on this case?

The law says Freestanding Pistol Grip, not thumbhole only? A bar is not freestanding? I know what I think freestanding means.

Anyone contacted the Police about getting a E Cat? What "reason" have people with e cats given? I am of the understanding that the Police Hate giving E endorsements and even if you meet all the other requirments they will through back on the Reason 9 times out of 10?

**jono035** · 22nd June 2009, 21:16

Originally Posted by ouch

Anyone contacted the Police about getting a E Cat? What "reason" have people with e cats given? I am of the understanding that the Police Hate giving E endorsements and even if you meet all the other requirments they will through back on the Reason 9 times out of 10?

I have my pistol license which consists of the same background check and similar storage requirements (same requirements for the safe, just a whole lot smaller) and I didn't have any problems at all (no convictions, no history of any psychiatric issues, no public comments about wanting to kill anyone etc.).

I've heard mixed things about the E-cat licenses... The people who I know that have them seem to indicate that you just apply and providing there is nothing wrong you'll get it. The outsider perspective seems to be that police don't like giving them out for any reason at all and have a policy to not increase the numbers of people with the endorsement.

I was told to just apply for an E-cat license at the same time as applying for a B-cat license as the background check and storage conditions are the same as well as it only taking an extra form to be filled out and doesn't cost any more if you apply at the same time. It was suggested that the best reasons to have while getting one were shooting service-rifle competitions and 3-gun shoots, anything along the lines of hunting/sport was a red flag right from the start.

**jono035** · 22nd June 2009, 21:33

Bruce Simpson (www.ardvaark.co.nz) has a few interesting thoughts on the matter (he's the guy who got in trouble for the DIY cruise missile) but no-one in the responses there could find any reference to any of the actual legislation... I couldn't find anything in my searching either so I'm betting it is some kind of external classification with a line in the legislation something like ' will decide what external/internal features classify a weapon as a MSSA'.

I wonder if this only affects semi-automatics or whether it affects pump action shotguns as well, I saw a pretty nice looking ex US prison service pistol-grip pump-action shotgun at guncity a few months back... Didn't buy one because it would be a collector purchase, not something I could realistically use for skeet shooting or hunting without feeling a little conspicuous...

ouch · 22nd June 2009, 21:43

COLFO PRESS RELEASE

PRESS RELEASE

Immediate

Reclassification of ‘Sporting guns’ to military style.

The New Zealand Council of Licensed Firearm Owners, (COLFO), which represents the interests of legitimate firearms owners and is the largest voluntary shooting-related organisation in New Zealand was surprised and somewhat dismayed to hear on June 9th that the Police have decided to recategorise a selection of firearms that have been recognised and acknowledged as meeting category ‘A’ requirements since 1984, to military semi automatic category ‘E’ firearms (MSSAs). These (A category) are firearms that for the last 25 years (since 1984) the Police have had no problem in allowing to enter the country. Note that from 1984 to 1992 all rifles were treated equally with no restrictions on purchase; from 1992 some became E category and required the E endorsement.

This decision will impact on thousands of law-abiding firearm owners throughout New Zealand in several ways. The first impact will be the fact that what has been a legitimate Cat ‘A’ firearm will now become a Cat ‘E’ and thus make the possessor of such a firearm to be in illegal possession. Law-abiding owners who currently have only an A licence will need to apply for an ‘E’ endorsement at a cost of $200, undergo a more stringent vetting process, and have to purchase a suitable security cabinet at about $800 in order register the firearm. Failing this they will have to sell it at whatever the new market rate is.
To make such a change after 25 years appears to be pointless to COLFO, especially when, in announcing this move, Police Superintendent Tony McLeod states that he did not know how many owners or firearms were affected! Superintendant McLeod then states that there was “a definite risk” that some owners may not come forward because of the higher cost of the E-class licence. This is the same person who said five weeks ago (in relation to the Napier incident), “Nearly 50,000 people had not responded by the end of a campaign targeting lifetime gun licence holders to renew or surrender their weapons in 2002.”
Beyond this announcement which has now reached virtually all legal groups but possibly not all legal owners, the police have not said how this change is to be implemented and admitted today on radio that they don’t yet know.
COLFO as its name implies supports legal process regarding firearms and encourages all owners to obey the laws. In this case how are owners to proceed? COLFO asks is this effective law? In light of the above comments how can the police possibly go about identifying licence holders in possession of these newly defined firearms? How is all this to be carried out, when the police admit they don’t know? All this is going to do is throw confusion amongst law abiding firearm licence holders as it will only target them and not the possessors of illegally obtained firearms such as those in the possession of Jan Mollenaar.

COLFO is always available for consultation and is always prepared to sit around the table and work with anyone to make good workable legislation when it comes to firearms laws. We now invite the police to sit down with COLFO very soon to discuss the future of this change and its implications. This will help relieve the anxiety many up-to-now legitimate owners are feeling
Trevor Dyke
COLFO Media Spokesperson
0274 476 858

22 June 2009

ouch · 22nd June 2009, 21:45

Originally Posted by jono035

Bruce Simpson (www.ardvaark.co.nz) has a few interesting thoughts on the matter (he's the guy who got in trouble for the DIY cruise missile) but no-one in the responses there could find any reference to any of the actual legislation... I couldn't find anything in my searching either so I'm betting it is some kind of external classification with a line in the legislation something like ' will decide what external/internal features classify a weapon as a MSSA'.

I wonder if this only affects semi-automatics or whether it affects pump action shotguns as well, I saw a pretty nice looking ex US prison service pistol-grip pump-action shotgun at guncity a few months back... Didn't buy one because it would be a collector purchase, not something I could realistically use for skeet shooting or hunting without feeling a little conspicuous...

Thanks off to read what he says now.

Only semi autos. They are the Evil ones!

Oh, thanks too on the Reasons! I just want a stock to fit me hands for bunny blasting so I guess thats out.

**jono035** · 22nd June 2009, 22:02

Yeah, seems a bit pointless to me really, I could understand this if they had enforced this from the beginning, but to wait until now? Truly insane.

**scumdog** · 22nd June 2009, 22:16

Originally Posted by scumdog

No worries about thumbhole stocks - some really opened up thumbholes may be crossing the line though.....but remember it only applies to semi-autos though. (before some of you start flappin')

As I said here....

**sAsLEX** · 22nd June 2009, 22:41

Originally Posted by scumdog

As I said here....

umm well I went to buy a little thumbhole .22 today and nope that there is a nasty evil E cat MSSA I was told..... surely not me thinks?

Up to North Shore Police Centre, find me two rather confused Arms Officers. Neither of which could state what the new rules were and showed me the "Montage" and then shrugged their shoulders. Spent a good half hour chatting with one of the guys and he is flabbergasted at the state of things.

This is a MSSA.

The cop thought it would be A cat so I went back to Wills and checked again with Will himself, but it would remain E until he had something in writing from the cops.

**sAsLEX** · 22nd June 2009, 22:46

Originally Posted by jono035

Yeah, seems a bit pointless to me really, I could understand this if they had enforced this from the beginning, but to wait until now? Truly insane.

Have you heard of the term "Knee Jerk"?

Trying to make up for the fact they fucked up by not checking him after his FAL expired/was revoked.

**Indiana_Jones** · 22nd June 2009, 23:07

For fucks sake.

They change their view of the law on a whim with no public consultation and they don't even bother to tell their own lads in blue.

Jesus wept...

This is gonna get messy real fast. A lot of "E-cat" guns are gonna 'go missing' soon....

-Indy

**EJK** · 22nd June 2009, 23:17

Hey Indy, I want to shop like this aye (Not the killing).

ouch · 22nd June 2009, 23:25

Originally Posted by scumdog

As I said here....

Is the top image a thumbhole or not?
Are the others Freestanding military style pistol grips or not?
Arms code says:
Free standing military style pistol grip.

No mention of thumbhole, dragunov or indeed a metal bar but "Freestanding".

Main Entry:free·stand·ing
Pronunciation:\ˈfrē-ˈstan-diŋ\
Function:adjective
Date:1876
1: standing alone or on its own foundation free of support or attachment
2: independent 1 ; especially : not being part of or affiliated with another organization

Has anyone found out whom had the concerns referred to in the original Police release and what those concerns were?