The firearm thread

**jono035** · 22nd October 2009, 19:37

Originally Posted by sAsLEX

Why restrict protection?

Should ban airbags...... people would drive safer then.....

Well I'd say the argument in favor of restricting bullet-proof vests is pretty much the dead opposite to the argument in favor of further restriction on firearms in this country.

You're much more likely to be shot by the police than by a civilian, so therefore if you want a bullet-proof vest, you're probably doing something bad.

I didn't claim the restriction made sense

**Mr Merde** · 22nd October 2009, 19:44

Originally Posted by sAsLEX

They tested it on hearing the Staff Sgts story and hung a coat on a clothes line at about 25 feet.

Rounds stopped dead.

ps Chris still keen on the air pistols from your mate in the UK!

I'll e-mail him on Tuesday.

Wonder how much the flexibility of the coat assisted in this.

Ever tried cutting a piece of falling cloth?

**sAsLEX** · 22nd October 2009, 19:48

Originally Posted by Mr Merde

I'll e-mail him on Tuesday.

Wonder how much the flexibility of the coat assisted in this.

Ever tried cutting a piece of falling cloth?

It was due to the fact it was wet. I think that at the instant of the bullet striking, the water held the fabric together enough to stop penetration, and then the forward energy of the projectile was transferred to the much larger surface area of the coat which resisted movement due to having to displace a much larger volume of air.

**Mr Merde** · 22nd October 2009, 19:51

Originally Posted by sAsLEX

It was due to the fact it was wet. I think that at the instant of the bullet striking, the water held the fabric together enough to stop penetration, and then the forward energy of the projectile was transferred to the much larger surface area of the coat which resisted movement due to having to displace a much larger volume of air.

Sounds feasible but I would hate to be inside the coat to test it for real.

**Wolf** · 22nd October 2009, 21:08

Originally Posted by Mr Merde

Sounds feasible but I would hate to be inside the coat to test it for real.

sounds like a job for a tailor's dummy packed with sensors and ballistic gel (or, failing that, layers of plasticine). The tailor's dummy would remove the "how much of it was the coat being free to move" issue by simulating a layer or 2 (if it was a double-breasted coat) over a torso, the plasticine/gel would deform and let us know what happened to the "person" inside.

Draping it over the corpse of a pig or similar animal would also work and you can autopsy it later and see if the ribs broke.

For the SMG, assuming no law-abiding collector would fire one of the ones in his/her collection, a long-barrelled 9mm pistol would have to do.

If anyone decides to try it, I'd be keen to come along and watch.

**jono035** · 22nd October 2009, 21:23

Originally Posted by Wolf

sounds like a job for a tailor's dummy packed with sensors and ballistic gel (or, failing that, layers of plasticine). The tailor's dummy would remove the "how much of it was the coat being free to move" issue by simulating a layer or 2 (if it was a double-breasted coat) over a torso, the plasticine/gel would deform and let us know what happened to the "person" inside.

Draping it over the corpse of a pig or similar animal would also work and you can autopsy it later and see if the ribs broke.

For the SMG, assuming no law-abiding collector would fire one of the ones in his/her collection, a long-barrelled 9mm pistol would have to do.

If anyone decides to try it, I'd be keen to come along and watch.

Ballistic gel isn't really much use beyond penetration/expansion testing... I've seen plasticine used to good effect when testing 'bullet-proof' materials... Shows quite a large amount of permanent deformation which can be used to gauge how much of a wound someone would have sustained from the impact. Not having the bullet go through is little consolation if you end up with broken ribs and a collapsed lung!

For testing just use some loaded down .44 magnum rounds out of a lever gun. Easy to get them similar to a .45acp out of a SMG.

**Wolf** · 22nd October 2009, 23:12

Originally Posted by jono035

I've seen plasticine used to good effect when testing 'bullet-proof' materials...

Likewise. The one I saw had layers of rolled out plasticine stacked to demonstrate the difference between a straight Kevlar jacket and one incorporating a Sorbothane blunt trauma pad underneath the armour.

There was a lot of deformation of the former and significantly less deformation of the latter.

Originally Posted by jono035

Shows quite a large amount of permanent deformation which can be used to gauge how much of a wound someone would have sustained from the impact. Not having the bullet go through is little consolation if you end up with broken ribs and a collapsed lung!

yep. Make mine the one with the Sorbothane liner, thanks.

Didn't realise the gel's only useful for penetration tests. Thanks.

**Mr Merde** · 24th October 2009, 17:18

Took the latest member of my firearms family out the back to the range, today.

Took along 75 rounds of #7 shot, 3 tin cans and a 4' square piece of advertising board (the sort the estate agents use as it makes a great target)

At about 15 metres I fired for pattern. Both barrels printed to the same place with the shot making about a 1/2 metre circle. The wads also pierced the board.

Moved back to 25 metres, pattern opened up to about 1 metre, wads didnt penetrate this time.

At 30 metres the pattern opened up to about 1 1/2 metres

Not bad for 18 1/2 inch barrels.

Now I started playing.

Tin cans set at 15 metres, 30 metres and 50 metres approx.

Hit every time at 15m and the tin can danced, both barrels seem to have an "improved choke.

At 30 metres the same thing, the cans danced. Follow up shots were nice and quick and I caught the can in the air on more than one occasion.

Now out to 50 metres. Had to change my aiming point. Put the bead over the can. Miss. lowered the sight so that the bead sat about 2/3 down the can. Bang and she jumped into the air. Follow up was slower butr again the can was airborne.

OK now I wanted to know the range at which I could hit the can.

For those of you who know my place I placed the next can about 3/4 of the way to the cliff from the firing point.

Placed the bead at the bottom of the tin can and fired. Bugger me it hit and the can was knocked over. Did it with the other barrel to be sure it wasnt a fluke and the can spun away.

OK so now I know this little shortie can hit out to about 70 metres.

Next can was thrown out to about 10 metres. Took aim, pulled the trigger and the can was driven into the mud. Mud went flying into the air. Picked up the can and there is a hole in it the size of a golf ball with a few pellet holes surrounding it.

This thing would be absolutely deadly as a home defense weapon if such was allowed. A central hit to the boddy mass would cause massive damage.

All I need to do now is to find out how it handles black powder and also how it goes against clays with both modern and bp.

To say I am pleased would be an understatement. I'm over the moon. I have a shottie that is easy to use, accurate, deadly and looks good.

She needs a name.

BLING TO THE BEST SUGGESTION.

Chris

**The Pastor** · 24th October 2009, 18:02

Originally Posted by Mr Merde

Took the latest member of my firearms family out the back to the range, today.

Took along 75 rounds of #7 shot, 3 tin cans and a 4' square piece of advertising board (the sort the estate agents use as it makes a great target)

At about 15 metres I fired for pattern. Both barrels printed to the same place with the shot making about a 1/2 metre circle. The wads also pierced the board.

Moved back to 25 metres, pattern opened up to about 1 metre, wads didnt penetrate this time.

At 30 metres the pattern opened up to about 1 1/2 metres

Not bad for 18 1/2 inch barrels.

Now I started playing.

Tin cans set at 15 metres, 30 metres and 50 metres approx.

Hit every time at 15m and the tin can danced, both barrels seem to have an "improved choke.

At 30 metres the same thing, the cans danced. Follow up shots were nice and quick and I caught the can in the air on more than one occasion.

Now out to 50 metres. Had to change my aiming point. Put the bead over the can. Miss. lowered the sight so that the bead sat about 2/3 down the can. Bang and she jumped into the air. Follow up was slower butr again the can was airborne.

OK now I wanted to know the range at which I could hit the can.

For those of you who know my place I placed the next can about 3/4 of the way to the cliff from the firing point.

Placed the bead at the bottom of the tin can and fired. Bugger me it hit and the can was knocked over. Did it with the other barrel to be sure it wasnt a fluke and the can spun away.

OK so now I know this little shortie can hit out to about 70 metres.

Next can was thrown out to about 10 metres. Took aim, pulled the trigger and the can was driven into the mud. Mud went flying into the air. Picked up the can and there is a hole in it the size of a golf ball with a few pellet holes surrounding it.

This thing would be absolutely deadly as a home defense weapon if such was allowed. A central hit to the boddy mass would cause massive damage.

All I need to do now is to find out how it handles black powder and also how it goes against clays with both modern and bp.

To say I am pleased would be an understatement. I'm over the moon. I have a shottie that is easy to use, accurate, deadly and looks good.

She needs a name.

BLING TO THE BEST SUGGESTION.

Chris

This is my boom stick!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vD1JNWkt4o

Quality is pretty lame, but its a great clip.

**doc** · 24th October 2009, 18:19

Originally Posted by Mr Merde

Took the latest member of my firearms family out the back to the range, today.
Chris

Did you see Sky Future weapons last week with the 1st shotgun designed for military purposes . Friggen awesome. Stainless, never needed cleaning no recoil , 300rpm mil purpose rounds ,designed for room combat but showed it at the range. Faaaark, I want one

**jono035** · 24th October 2009, 18:38

Originally Posted by doc

Did you see Sky Future weapons last week with the 1st shotgun designed for military purposes . Friggen awesome. Stainless, never needed cleaning no recoil , 300rpm mil purpose rounds ,designed for room combat but showed it at the range. Faaaark, I want one

Was that the automatic shotty? That thing was unbelievably ugly but what a beast.

**Mr Merde** · 25th October 2009, 09:35

Originally Posted by doc

Did you see Sky Future weapons last week with the 1st shotgun designed for military purposes . Friggen awesome. Stainless, never needed cleaning no recoil , 300rpm mil purpose rounds ,designed for room combat but showed it at the range. Faaaark, I want one

I take it that this is the AA12 you are talking about.

Yes bloody awesome, the pure destructiveness of this firearm is very impressive.

The shotgun has been a military weapon since WW1. In that war the US deployed companies of men armed with the Winchester pump action trench gun. They used 00 rounds , which for the uninitiated is 9 .36 calibre balls.

With 200 men firing as fast as they could and other men in the trenches loading the firepower was devastating.

Work out the maths

The shotgun holds 7 rounds

7 times 9 = 63 pellets
200 men x 63 = 12500 in the first load.
A man can empty these shotguns in 10 seconds or less
so lets say that they fire for a minute that 6 reloads

12600 x 6 = 75,600 .36 calibre balls downrange

If the kept this up for 15 min (random number) = 1,134,000 pellets in 15 min

The German high command, who authorised the use of mustard gas long before this, actually compalined to the Geneva Convention re the use of shotguns in warfare as cruel and not fair.

These shotgun companies were apparently absolutely leathal for any troops advancing accross no mans land, even more so than the machine gun companies emmployed by both sides.

As to wanting one yes it would be very interesting but can you see our govt allowing a civilian to own one of these when they are struggling to arm the defence and police forces with weapons that are of a design more than 30 years old. Tui moment.

**jono035** · 25th October 2009, 10:10

I've seen a few videos of people shooting through various things (pig carcasses etc.) with 00 buckshot and the results are pretty horrific... Definitely works as advertised... Each ball ends up with a similar amount of energy to a 9mm pistol round (similar size projectile too) so you've basically got half a 9mm magazine in a single shell. Yikes.

Edit: 00 buck is 50-60 grains per pellet so more like half to 1/3 the energy of a 9mm...

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm claims that #1 shot is better due to it still having enough energy to penetrate through 12 inches on ballistic gelatin but almost twice as many pellets per shell. Some of the level of detail you can find on how best to kill a human is kind of creepy.

Edit 2: Of course, that is only for home-defense so very short range. 00 is apparently effective out beyond 100 metres...