The firearm thread

[jono035]

I think she said something about me being in bed with you guys? =/

-Indy

I knew you had the hots for Chris... It's pretty good of Sharon to share him!

Chris: Glad to hear that you're all done moving and not too traumatised by the experience. Keep us updated of the plans with regard to the reloading/casting area, I'm pretty interested to see what you come up with. I'm looking for reasons to ride the new bike around at the moment so PM me your address and I'll wander down and check the new place out (and lend a hand with anything required) sometime.

[frogfeaturesFZR]

Just spent the day at the Deerstalkers range out Riverhead, great day, black powder, cowboy action shooting, military arms demo, had a play with a semi-auto shot gun.
Even managed to knock over a couple of clays. Thoroughly recommend their open days.

[frogfeaturesFZR]

Akld Arms Fair next weekend, West Wave Centre, Henderson. Doors open @ 9.00am.

[Urano]

O_O
only a third of you is unarmed?????

i'm a bit surprised... as requested in the first post i don't want to talk about right or wrong, but i'm just curious: do you think is really necessary for you? or you use it to go hunting?
what's the guns regulation there?

[jono035]

Hi Urano,

Welcome to the board! It's always interesting to have people dropping in to chat with us from other parts of the world!

The gun regulations here are that with a basic license (background check and short training course) and $50 lockable rack that you can own any rifle providing that if they are a semi-automatic then they can only take a limited number of rounds in the magazine and don't have a few other minor inconsequential features like flash hiders, bayonet lugs or free-standing pistol grips. Those firearms as well as pistols are held on a separate endorsement to your license which requires much tighter security and a more stringent background check.

Most firearms use in this country is for hunting. There are a lot of pests in this country that hunting does a good job of helping to control. Rabbits, possums, ducks, turkeys, goats, pigs, wallaby and deer are among the usual list.

As to the 'necessity' of it, I don't believe that firearm ownership is necessary as such, but I am interested in why you would ask this question? Firearms owners in this country (as with many others) are among the most law abiding segment of the community. We need to be in order to keep our licenses. Drunk driving charges, assault charges, domestic abuse accusations etc. can all result in our license being suspended and our firearms seized.

Firearms legislation is also only effective among the people who choose to live their lives within the law. Here, as in most places around the world, the tightening of firearms legislation hasn't affected firearm crime rates because the people committing the crimes are simply using stolen or smuggled firearms and don't care about breaking a couple of extra laws. Australia and the UK are both seeing this effect, now, and have some of the toughest 'gun control' legislation in the world.

My experience has been that people focus on the tool used instead of the person using it far too much when it comes to firearms. After all, it's legal to carry lockpicks, hammers, pry bars, pocket knives etc. and all of those are used to commit crimes every single day?

[Mr Merde]

....
what's the guns regulation there?

We have 4 catagories of firearms licencing here in NZ

A cat) allows us to own and use sporting rifles and shotguns.

B cat) allows us to own and use pistols under certain conditions.

C cat) allows us to collect firearms but not shoot them. Under this level we are allowed fully functional machine guns, short barreled pistols, mortars, light cannons etc

E cat ) allows us to own Mitilary Pattern Semi Automatic firearms

There is another licence catagory, that is for a dealer. Most of us do not aspire to be such in this country.

Most shooters in NZ only bother going for the A cat licence. It allows us hunting rifles and shotguns. With the rifles we can go after the pests that jono035 mentioned and the shotguns allows us to participate in clay shoots or in season to go duck hunting.

Hope this helps

Chris

[Urano]

Thanks Mr. Fransèe very clear...

Hi Urano,

Welcome to the board!

Hi Jono... thanks for the welcome (and W A F GREAT BIKE you have! sincere congratulations... )

Those firearms as well as pistols are held on a separate endorsement to your license which requires much tighter security

uhm... let me guess... because pistols are easier to carry and to hide, and usually unuseful for hunting, so they'll ask themselves a bigger WHY do you need such an object...
how's my shot?

As to the 'necessity' of it, I don't believe that firearm ownership is necessary as such, but I am interested in why you would ask this question? Firearms owners in this country (as with many others) are among the most law abiding segment of the community. We need to be in order to keep our licenses. Drunk driving charges, assault charges, domestic abuse accusations etc. can all result in our license being suspended and our firearms seized.

no, don't worry... i always say that guns never kill anybody, even if a lot o people simply don't get the point.
my question about the "necessity" was driven by the doubt that you could think at the ownership as a "security necessity", to feel safe in your house or to face crimes or fear of crimes...
as in usa, where beside the hunting they push on the security function of arms. "if the guns will be out of the law only the outlaw will have the guns" you know? (I ADORE the sense of humour of John Casey... )
so the question was intended to understand if you feel safe, and use the guns for joy and sport only, or you have a diffuse sense of "unsecurity" and you need to have a gun.

about the fact, my idea is that i have no problems with gun free sell, or almost free. swiss had a militia army 'till 10 years ago, so everybody had an assault rifle in the locker, and swiss was sure not a "far west" where fearing to walk on the streets...
beside that, i'm happy that in italy guns are not freely sold: keep away from children...

about me on the other hand, i would never buy a gun for safety, 'cause i don't want to be in the occasion of deciding to pull the trigger or not; and i don't like hunting with firearms. i feel it unfair. a sport is fair if both the contenders have a possibility to win, but if you fire a 20 cm bird with a 1m and a half rose of lead, where's its possibility? i'll accept hunt only with arch. try to hunt a wild boar with a monolithic arch and a three blade point, THEN it's fair. if you're less than precise it'll be ITS turn, and you'd better to be a good runner...

[Mr Merde]

Urano,

In New Zealand we have a group of people who are dedicated wild boar hunters.

They use a pack of dogs to track the animal and then once it is cornered the hunter goes in and finishes the animal with a knife.

One of the girls I work with lists this as her "sport". She raises the dogs, trains them and sticks the boar. She is the admin assistant in our local art gallery.

Look up boar hunting in NZ on google.

The boars have been known to go as high as 150+ kg in weight with 100mm+ tusks.

[jono035]

I see your points but there are many people in the US who enjoy hunting with pistols or use them as defense against dangerous wildlife (bears etc.). I think you are correct about the perception of pistol ownership but I don't think it lines up with reality. There is a definite sense of the police wanting to remove any ability for you to be able to defend yourself, which is one of my main gripes given that the police force is naturally a reactive (rather than proactive) entity.

As to the hunting being fair then I do agree with you to an extent. The idea of hunting for trophies isn't my idea of fun and hunting for meat should be done with care to be done sustainably.

We do, however, have a few massive pest problems in New Zealand, the main one being possums. I grew up on the edge of a large native forest reserve and looking at photos from 10-15 years ago, it is amazing to see just how much damage has been done. I hunt these for fun, pest control and they make pretty good dog food, too! Apparently the plucked fur is also quite valuable (~$5 per possum) but I have no personal experience with this, only from friends.

All of the people I have hunted with place a lot of emphasis on only taking shots that will have a good chance of killing the animal humanely which is sadly something that I have heard extremely conflicting reports about when it comes to those who thrive on more 'difficult' styles of hunting, such as bowhunting.

[Urano]

The boars have been known to go as high as 150+ kg in weight with 100mm+ tusks.

i know Mr... some years ago i had about 2000 nz$ of damage on my car by hitting a boar behind a turn at night in the mountains near modena... it wasn't funny...

There is a definite sense of the police wanting to remove any ability for you to be able to defend yourself, which is one of my main gripes given that the police force is naturally a reactive (rather than proactive) entity.

i completely agree with you, but the fact remain: if you find someone in your house at night, you can hope that he will go away, with or without what he was lookin for, but above all without hurting someone. or you can take the gun you have in the drawer, and then he will take the one in the belt, if he had one, and now, who will fire first? so it comes clear that if you have a gun you HAVE to use it in that cases, and to use it first, and to double the big target fast. because if you don't use it then would have been better not to take it and make him use his, so there would be no difference in having it and keep it in the drawer or not having it.
i don't want to be in that situation, and i prey not to be in the first one neither...

All of the people I have hunted with place a lot of emphasis on only taking shots that will have a good chance of killing the animal humanely which is sadly something that I have heard extremely conflicting reports about when it comes to those who thrive on more 'difficult' styles of hunting, such as bowhunting.

i've heard about your problems with opossums... so i completely understand you're action in those cases... and i have sadly to agree with you about bowhunting. after all i never went hunting, i only tried to see it as a sport from the eye of the victims... a little bit as the spanish "corrida", so adversed from animal lovers, but to me seems a fair play, so it has its honour...

[The Pastor]

i know Mr... some years ago i had about 2000 nz$ of damage on my car by hitting a boar behind a turn at night in the mountains near modena... it wasn't funny...




i completely agree with you, but the fact remain: if you find someone in your house at night, you can hope that he will go away, with or without what he was lookin for, but above all without hurting someone. or you can take the gun you have in the drawer, and then he will take the one in the belt, if he had one, and now, who will fire first? so it comes clear that if you have a gun you HAVE to use it in that cases, and to use it first, and to double the big target fast. because if you don't use it then would have been better not to take it and make him use his, so there would be no difference in having it and keep it in the drawer or not having it.
i don't want to be in that situation, and i prey not to be in the first one neither...




i've heard about your problems with opossums... so i completely understand you're action in those cases... and i have sadly to agree with you about bowhunting. after all i never went hunting, i only tried to see it as a sport from the eye of the victims... a little bit as the spanish "corrida", so adversed from animal lovers, but to me seems a fair play, so it has its honour...

yeah nice argument except for one flaw, lots of criminals already have guns.

[Wolf]

i completely agree with you, but the fact remain: if you find someone in your house at night, you can hope that he will go away, with or without what he was lookin for, but above all without hurting someone. or you can take the gun you have in the drawer, and then he will take the one in the belt, if he had one, and now, who will fire first? so it comes clear that if you have a gun you HAVE to use it in that cases, and to use it first, and to double the big target fast. because if you don't use it then would have been better not to take it and make him use his, so there would be no difference in having it and keep it in the drawer or not having it.
i don't want to be in that situation, and i prey not to be in the first one neither...

The thing is, purchasing a firearm for home/self defense is not an option here in New Zealand. Nor is keeping a loaded firearm in a drawer in case someone intrudes into your house in the small hours of the morning. As to drawing a weapon - any kind, even a knife or a baseball bat - on hearing a prowler and then actively stalking them through your house, the big worry should be that you've crapped all over your "self defense" plea and wandered into the realms of attempted assault with a weapon, if not attempted murder.

A canny prosecution lawyer - and yes, you will be prosecuted if you use a weapon on someone - would be asking the jury to consider how you thought yourself to be justified in arming yourself if you had merely heard an intruder.

It's not the Wild Wild West, you can't sleep with a gun under your pillow and come out guns a-blazin' or try to have a quickdraw contest with an armed intruder.

[jono035]

The thing is, purchasing a firearm for home/self defense is not an option here in New Zealand. Nor is keeping a loaded firearm in a drawer in case someone intrudes into your house in the small hours of the morning. As to drawing a weapon - any kind, even a knife or a baseball bat - on hearing a prowler and then actively stalking them through your house, the big worry should be that you've crapped all over your "self defense" plea and wandered into the realms of attempted assault with a weapon, if not attempted murder.

A canny prosecution lawyer - and yes, you will be prosecuted if you use a weapon on someone - would be asking the jury to consider how you thought yourself to be justified in arming yourself if you had merely heard an intruder.

It's not the Wild Wild West, you can't sleep with a gun under your pillow and come out guns a-blazin' or try to have a quickdraw contest with an armed intruder.

No, but there are enough stories of elderly people getting raped and assaulted in their own homes etc. to make me believe that this wouldn't be the silliest option, really.

[Wolf]

I fully agree, Jono, it's becoming more and more apparent to those of us that don't have our heads up our arses that the crims are armed with something more often than not these days and are more inclined to use a weapon on you now than in the past - but that does not alter the fact that if you use a weapon you will be arrested, you will be prosecuted, the prosecution will do their best to convince the jury that you were acting unreasonably and/or maliciously and it will be up to the jury to decide whether or not your assumption was reasonable under the circumstances.

If the jury is made up of people whose heads are up their arses, then you are likely to be found guilty of anything from attempted aggravated assault to premeditated murder depending on the outcome of your actions and what charges are levelled against you.

Bear in mind that the sole function of a jury is to determine who has the better lawyer - so you'd better hope that your lawyer is more adept than the QC.

[jono035]

I fully agree, Jono, it's becoming more and more apparent to those of us that don't have our heads up our arses that the crims are armed with something more often than not these days and are more inclined to use a weapon on you now than in the past - but that does not alter the fact that if you use a weapon you will be arrested, you will be prosecuted, the prosecution will do their best to convince the jury that you were acting unreasonably and/or maliciously and it will be up to the jury to decide whether or not your assumption was reasonable under the circumstances.

If the jury is made up of people whose heads are up their arses, then you are likely to be found guilty of anything from attempted aggravated assault to premeditated murder depending on the outcome of your actions and what charges are levelled against you.

Bear in mind that the sole function of a jury is to determine who has the better lawyer - so you'd better hope that your lawyer is more adept than the QC.

Certainly, the first thing to do after shooting an intruder would be fire a couple of warning shots into the roof, the second would be call the best lawyer that you can possibly afford, up to and including mortgaging your house. The fact that we've gotten to the point where it is another way you're more likely to be able to keep your family safe if you're rich is particularly amusing.