The firearm thread

[Wolf]

For Slugs vs smaller shot, it could easily be that the slug creates a better gas seal in the bore so more muzzle energy (and more perceived recoil) for the same powder/projectile weight.

The argument could be made the other way around, though, that larger shot provides a worse bore seal around the wad and therefore more muzzle blast and perceived recoil...

It disturbs me that I can see the logic in that.

[Drunken Monkey]

For Slugs vs smaller shot, it could easily be that the slug creates a better gas seal in the bore so more muzzle energy (and more perceived recoil) for the same powder/projectile weight.

The argument could be made the other way around, though, that larger shot provides a worse bore seal around the wad and therefore more muzzle blast and perceived recoil...

I'm thinking the gas seal should be irrelevant, that whatever energy that goes into escaping gas is just lost from the energy of the ammo, i.e. as you increase recoil from propellant, it is directly proportionally decreased from reduced velocity of the bullet. So I would expect in practice that a loose pack, with wasted explosive energy firing a bullet/slug/shot slowly would be the same as a tight pack that imparts more of its energy to the bullet/slug/shot.

In looking at some examples of how recoil works on spring operated auto loaders, it seems the springs are optimized for a certain weight of bullet and work best at a particular recoil. I still think my first guess was closest, if we were to weigh a slug with #6's, I think we'd find that although the smaller shot packs tighter, they just pack less of it. 00 packs more loosely, but they fill the shell to the brim.

[jono035]

I'm thinking the gas seal should be irrelevant, that whatever energy that goes into escaping gas is just lost from the energy of the ammo, i.e. as you increase recoil from propellant, it is directly proportionally decreased from reduced velocity of the bullet. So I would expect in practice that a loose pack, with wasted explosive energy firing a bullet/slug/shot slowly would be the same as a tight pack that imparts more of its energy to the bullet/slug/shot.

In looking at some examples of how recoil works on spring operated auto loaders, it seems the springs are optimized for a certain weight of bullet and work best at a particular recoil. I still think my first guess was closest, if we were to weigh a slug with #6's, I think we'd find that although the smaller shot packs tighter, they just pack less of it. 00 packs more loosely, but they fill the shell to the brim.

True, but total energy is a very minor aspect of perceived recoil. Peak impulse and muzzle blast are more important. I suspect that a better gas seal could increase both these things.

[Drunken Monkey]

True, as the energy is released over a longer t, you would expect the perceived recoil to be lower (but total momentum to still be the same). Perhaps there is no difference in total recoil between the types of ammo, just the rate the energy is released.

Anyone got a force gauge for the next shoot? I'm thinking the next Onewhero Hoplophile shoot might get quite nerdy...

[sAsLEX]

True, as the energy is released over a longer t, you would expect the perceived recoil to be lower (but total momentum to still be the same). Perhaps there is no difference in total recoil between the types of ammo, just the rate the energy is released.

Anyone got a force gauge for the next shoot? I'm thinking the next Onewhero Hoplophile shoot might get quite nerdy...

Weak.

Use some math to prove it...

[Drunken Monkey]

Like:

PR = (((( (Kgms^-1) / Sin(t) ) * xSk * xFl * N/cm^2 ) / R.Sk ) * Kg ) / (ES/1 )

??

Well if you can show me how to express perceived recoil mathematically, then I'll take you on. Until then it's all just popular science...

[Smokin]

Shot shells are made to a specified weight, So an 1-1/4 oz load of #7 shot has the same weight of shot as a 1-1/4 oz 0f #2 shot, Even tho the total shot count is alot higher in the #7 cartridge the recoil will be the same as they also use the same powder charge, as long as brand of cartridge is the same of course. the gas seal will also be the same as it's the wad sealing the load through it's journey through the barrel.

[The Pastor]

.............. wtf ............

[jono035]

I don't think it is as simple as that, smokin.

If the bullet casting guys say that lead can be too soft to seal the bore, I doubt the wad does a particularly effective job.

Also, it is demonstratable that the same rifle firing different handloads with the same muzzle energy can have vastly different perceived recoil, from my understanding.

Ultimately it's all pissing in the wind, though.

[Mr Merde]

According to the Shotgun Recoil Table the recoil energy of a 1 ounce target load at 1180 fps in a typical 7.5 pound gun is 17.3 ft. lbs., about like the recoil of a .270 rifle. The typical promotional shell with 1 ounce of shot at 1290 fps in the same shotgun hits back with around 20.8 ft. lbs. of recoil energy, about like an average .30-06 rifle.

These loads deliver about as much recoil as most shooters can stand on a continuing basis.

A typical high-brass load with 1 1/4 ounces of shot at a MV of 1330 fps fired in a 7.5 pound shotgun is much worse. It belts the shooter with 36.4 ft. lbs. of recoil. This is roughly equivalent to the kick of a .300 Ultra Mag. rifle. Average hunters should strictly limit the number of such loads they fire to avoid developing a flinch.

12 gauge Magnum shells are even worse. A 2 3/4 inch Magnum shell throwing 1 1/2 ounces of shot at 1260 fps from a 7.5 pound shotgun belts the shooter with 45.9 ft. lbs. of recoil, somewhat more than the recoil of a typical .375 H&H Magnum rifle shooting 300 grain factory loads! And the 3 inch Magnum 12 gauge shell firing 1 7/8 ounces of shot at a MV of 1210 fps in that same 7.5 pound shotgun slams the shooter with over 60 ft. lbs. of recoil energy. This is equivalent to the recoil of a .378 Weatherby Magnum rifle, and exceeds the recoil of a typical .458 Winchester Magnum rifle.

This is literally recoil in the elephant gun class, and most shooters would be well advised to avoid such loads.

In summary its not the size of the shot in the case but the velocity that it is loaded to. #7 shot is a bird and target load and loaded to a relatively low velocity. #4 shot is more for wildfowl such as geese, duck and swan. It is loaded to attain a higher velocity than #7 so as to hit harder and further.

[SMOKEU]

To clean a rifle or shotgun do you guys normally run a patch through the barrel with a bore cleaning liquid on it, then run a brass brush through the barrel, then run a clean patch through the barrel to get rid of the cleaner, then run another patch with some gun oil into the barrel to prepare it for storage?

I'm new to shotguns and I'm a bit confused over the whole cleaning thing! The recoil from a 12g is nowhere near as bad as I expected it to be, my over and under one feels quite nice to use with #5 hunting loads.

[Wolf]

In summary its not the size of the shot in the case but the velocity that it is loaded to. #7 shot is a bird and target load and loaded to a relatively low velocity. #4 shot is more for wildfowl such as geese, duck and swan. It is loaded to attain a higher velocity than #7 so as to hit harder and further.

So that's why the #4 recoiled harder than the #7.

I had no idea of the differences in the loads, not being an experienced shotgunner or reloader.

Still puzzled why the SKS - which is not exactly light - firing "dinky" little 7.62x39 rounds has a sharper, harsher kick when compared with the (albeit heavier) Swedish Mauser that was firing muckin' great .30-'06.

I was expecting the .30-'06 to have a monstrous recoil, given the size of the brass and its load. Sure, it pushes you back, but it didn't "kick".

[frogfeaturesFZR]

Wolf, just to add to your confusion, it's not just the cartridge- it can be the shape of the fore end and butt that effects recoil. That is 2 identical actions, say a remmington model 7 in .270 one in the 'factory' woodwork, and the other in an
after market version may feel to have a different amounts of recoil. Even though the ammo used is the same. Some stock shapes seem to 'transmit' recoil more than others.
Of course weight also has a bearing on felt recoil. I have a mate who custom built a .416 Rigby, and added lead weight to the butt. The weight seemed to tame the recoil.

[Drunken Monkey]

To clean a rifle or shotgun do you guys normally run a patch through the barrel with a bore cleaning liquid on it, then run a brass brush through the barrel, then run a clean patch through the barrel to get rid of the cleaner, then run another patch with some gun oil into the barrel to prepare it for storage?

I'm new to shotguns and I'm a bit confused over the whole cleaning thing! The recoil from a 12g is nowhere near as bad as I expected it to be, my over and under one feels quite nice to use with #5 hunting loads.

Use a bore snake, it makes things much easier.

[Shadows]

To clean a rifle or shotgun do you guys normally run a patch through the barrel with a bore cleaning liquid on it, then run a brass brush through the barrel, then run a clean patch through the barrel to get rid of the cleaner, then run another patch with some gun oil into the barrel to prepare it for storage?

That's what I do when I'm feeling conscientious. Otherwise I ignore the brass brush.

The most important thing to remember is to take out any removable choke you may have from time to time and clean the threads up. When they seize in place they pretty much become permanent fixtures...