The firearm thread

[Pound]

And here we have the blatant Double Standard.

Do you remember the Nice Truck attack? 83 people killed in a few Minutes, the event that radicalized the Terrorist, Do you remember the calls for Banning of Trucks?

No?

Well, that's where your entire argument falls down.

To be fair to the trucks and bikes though, they weren't designed for destructive purposes, where as the AR 15s and semi autos were designed for that very purpose.....

[TheDemonLord]

To be fair to the trucks and bikes though, they weren't designed for destructive purposes, where as the AR 15s and semi autos were designed for that very purpose.....

Do you include Sport Shooting and Pest control as Destructive purposes?

Because like a Truck - if used incorrectly, it can inflict mass casualties and deaths, but if used for it's lawful purpose, it's completely safe - in fact in NZ, there's less Heavy trucks (over 3.5 Tonne) than there are Semi-Autos, yet the fatality rate for Trucks is nearly 9 times that of Firearms (2016 data - 75 Deaths for Trucks vs 9 Murders for Firearms).

[onearmedbandit]

Can't wait until you guys all reach a general consensus and happily agree with each other.

[Pound]

Do you include Sport Shooting and Pest control as Destructive purposes?

Because like a Truck - if used incorrectly, it can inflict mass casualties and deaths, but if used for it's lawful purpose, it's completely safe - in fact in NZ, there's less Heavy trucks (over 3.5 Tonne) than there are Semi-Autos, yet the fatality rate for Trucks is nearly 9 times that of Firearms (2016 data - 75 Deaths for Trucks vs 9 Murders for Firearms).

Yes, I don't disagree that some people would most certainly use them for sport shooting and pest control, but I still stand by the fact that were primarily designed for destructive purposes, I.e taking/ending life. I would say that most (but not all, I'll admit) buyers would be purchasing them for self defense reasons, and of course, law enforcement/private contractors, again, to take the life of others.

Again, trucks, bikes, cars etc, were designed for peaceful, useful purposes......

If we are going to argue that way, you could say that chocolate, if used incorrectly can kill you......

[Pound]

Do you include Sport Shooting and Pest control as Destructive purposes?

Because like a Truck - if used incorrectly, it can inflict mass casualties and deaths, but if used for it's lawful purpose, it's completely safe - in fact in NZ, there's less Heavy trucks (over 3.5 Tonne) than there are Semi-Autos, yet the fatality rate for Trucks is nearly 9 times that of Firearms (2016 data - 75 Deaths for Trucks vs 9 Murders for Firearms).

By the way, I am not anti gun by any means, in fact I would personally quite like to own and fire a military style semi auto....

[jasonu]

I would say that most (but not all, I'll admit) buyers would be purchasing them for self defense reasons, and of course, law enforcement/private contractors, again, to take the life of others.
:

Most people I know that own guns (pretty much everyone I know here) have multiple styles of firearms for recreational purposes.

[Pound]

Most people I know that own guns (pretty much everyone I know here) have multiple styles of firearms for recreational purposes.

I was primarily referring to the American buyers, where the vast majority of said semi Autos/AR 15s are sold...

Here in NZ, I would absolutely say that it would probably be more like 90%+ for recreational purposes, as you are not allowed to use them as "self defense weapons" here in NZ, where as in Americaland, you are legally allowed to use them for such purposes...

[jasonu]

I was primarily referring to the American buyers, where the vast majority of said semi Autos/AR 15s are sold...

Here in NZ, I would absolutely say that it would probably be more like 90%+ for recreational purposes, as you are not allowed to use them as "self defense weapons" here in NZ, where as in Americaland, you are legally allowed to use them for such purposes...

Just to clarify I live in America (20+ years) and am referring to my friends here, none of which are even remotely likely to go and shoot up a school or mosque. Just regular people who happen to like guns.

[husaberg]

Can't wait until you guys all reach a general consensus and happily agree with each other.

Pretty sure the publc and the 99% politicians have reached a consensus, Its just that 14% are not so happy about it.
Funny enough more people in NZ believe it never went far enough than it went to far.
IN a poll of registered voters Sixty-one per cent thought the changes were about right, 19% thought it did not go far enough and 14% thought it went too far.
Five per cent didn't know, and 2% refused to answer.
The maximum sampling error is approximately ±3.1%-points at the 95 per cent confidence level.
the 14% who disagree collates strongly with doubling the number of Firearms licences in NZ ie 6.25% x2 ie plus the partner which eguals 13%

[buggerit]

Just to clarify I live in America (20+ years) and am referring to my friends here, none of which are even remotely likely to go and shoot up a school or mosque. Just regular people who happen to like guns.

if your mates want to shoot in nz all they need to do is prove they own a gun legally and prove they have done a
firearms safety course and pay $25, good for 12 months, this is the same for any country like the USA that doesn't
actually have a licencing system.
Check out nz police websight if you think this could not possibly be true.

[Pound]

Just to clarify I live in America (20+ years) and am referring to my friends here, none of which are even remotely likely to go and shoot up a school or mosque. Just regular people who happen to like guns.

Ah, I was not aware of that.

I would iamgine that the vast majority of gun owners in America (and here in NZ) are up standing, law abiding citizens, but it's always that 1% that ruin for the rest of us (Like the idiots who ride around in T shirts and Jandals on their crotch rockets pulling sick wheelies).

There is a lot about Americaland that I love, but they clearly do have a big problem with their gun culture, as they have a disproportionately high gun crime rate vs their population.

Wow, and here I really didn't want to get into a giant debate about guns/gun laws, but it seems like it's impossible to talk about it without having many clashing opinions for vs against.....

[husaberg]

Ah, I was not aware of that.

I would iamgine that the vast majority of gun owners in America (and here in NZ) are up standing, law abiding citizens, but it's always that 1% that ruin for the rest of us (Like the idiots who ride around in T shirts and Jandals on their crotch rockets pulling sick wheelies).
....

I totally agree but tunfortunately that's how the cookie crumbles its the lowest common denominator,
But you need to also realise the pass rate for a NZ gun licence was 99.6%.
contrast that with the NZ driver licence pass rate which is only 57% i think its not just Apollo 13 that had the problem.

I read somewhere the Cat gun laws introduced after Aromoana were actually the result of what the gun lobby drafted and we all know how full of loop holes they were.
http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/p...DLM278351.html

Not only that in the 2016 submissions
https://www.parliament.nz/resource/e...e9bc22727ef15d
COLFO is of the view that New Zealands’ legislation is world leading For its cost,effectiveness and results the New Zealand framework is simply as good as it can be and remains comfortably fit for purpose.
COLFO emphatically, implacably and unreservedly opposes the registration of firearms.
COLFO says Changing the ammunition supply mechanism in New Zealand, COLFO contends, will make no difference.
COLFO understands Police may wish to get all semiautomatic long arms re-categorised as restricted and to be held on an “E” Endorsement. This is opposed as pointless.........
COFLO Semi-Automatic firearms are not more or less dangerous compared to any other firearms type.........
COLFO considers that semi-automatic rifles are unlikely to be particularly favoured for nefarious activities.
COLFO opposes: Any amendment to the Arms Act (except as regards tariffs for offending) as this will make no difference whatsoever to the criminal misuse of forearms.
COLFO opposes: Any re-classification of semi-automatic rifles and shotguns to an “E”endorsement as this will make no difference whatsoever to the criminal use of firearms and will be counterproductive.
COLFO opposes: Any restrictions on the lawful use of the firearms as this will make no difference to the criminal misuse of firearms and will be counterproductive


But even Colfo admits the public wants the rules changed and the vast majority supports the bans

Since shooters represent only 5% of the population the chances of swaying public opinion in our favour are negligible, so our effort must be in influencing politicians and the new laws they propose. To this end COLFO has campaigned for more time to be given to allow for any new legislation to be digested and commented on by those most affected. We have encouraged all shooters to make submissions to parliament at the appropriate time and provided advice on how to do this. We have also asked to be consulted in drafting legislation in the hope of averting any stupid errors.
With all major political parties supporting a ban of semi autos our only hope, as responsible firearm owners, is to see that the resulting legislation is effective and fair and does not result in unintended consequences. We must insist that fair compensation is provided for those whose personal property is confiscated.

Not only that in 2019 they suddenly realised they had been talking shit in all their previous submissions. A 180 degree change.

COLFO’s recent survey indicates that 91% percent of the 5,500 submitters would support a higher level of vetting and 84% support a higher security requirement in order to retain a portion of their firearms.

Not only that the largest representative of NZ hunters interests supports the law changes

Pro-gun lobby group Fish & Game, which represents 150,000 anglers and game bird hunters, supports gun reform and said military-style weapons should never have been allowed to be sold here. CEO Martin Taylor said there is no legitimate recreational hunting use for such weapons.
Fish & Game said it would support a gun magazine limit of 2-3 shots.

Colfo only has 10000 members or .2% of the NZ population

[Swoop]

Most people I know that own guns (pretty much everyone I know here) have multiple styles of firearms for recreational purposes.

The same thing applies to a set of golf clubs. You can get by playing a game of golf with only one bat.
Shooting is similar, where you have a certain firearm for certain reasons (competitive shooting events, hunting large game, hunting small game, etc, etc.)

[TheDemonLord]

Yes, I don't disagree that some people would most certainly use them for sport shooting and pest control, but I still stand by the fact that were primarily designed for destructive purposes, I.e taking/ending life. I would say that most (but not all, I'll admit) buyers would be purchasing them for self defense reasons, and of course, law enforcement/private contractors, again, to take the life of others.

Again, trucks, bikes, cars etc, were designed for peaceful, useful purposes......

If we are going to argue that way, you could say that chocolate, if used incorrectly can kill you......

The question then becomes one of perspectives.

One could argue the case of Richard Gatling, that weapons are designed to save lives (Peace through superior Firepower, or specifically in his case - one man being able to do the work of 20).

In NZ, the only lawful purposes for an individual to have a Firearm are sporting purposes (Hunting, Target shooting etc.) So the only purpose from an NZ perspective is also peaceful, useful purposes.

The point I'm making is we have less Trucks than Firearms, more Deaths due to Trucks vs Firearms, Both Firearms and Trucks provide beneficial roles (Pest Control is a big thing in NZ), both can be abused by Terrorists to cause a large amount of deaths in a short amount of time.

Husa then went on to make the direct comparison - that if mass death at the hands of a madman was done by something else, we'd also be advocating for the banning of that thing - The clear reality is, that we don't. We have a different Standard for Firearms - and I'd say a part of that is the social stigma attached to them.

[TheDemonLord]

I totally agree but tunfortunately that's how the cookie crumbles its the lowest common denominator,
But you need to also realise the pass rate for a NZ gun licence was 99.6%.
contrast that with the NZ driver licence pass rate which is only 57% i think its not just Apollo 13 that had the problem.

I read somewhere the Cat gun laws introduced after Aromoana were actually the result of what the gun lobby drafted and we all know how full of loop holes they were.

And who is responsible for the 99.6% pass rate?

As for what you read - you might want to read about the 1994 AWB, then you might realise exactly which lobby group had a hand in drafting it....