The firearm thread

[husaberg]

A survey done in 1988 which showed there were 50,00 big game hunters - 40,000 of them hunting deer -
but one third did not kill any animals, and most of the others killed fewer than three animals a year.

So you have 24,242 active deer hunters only in NZ out of 250,000 licenced gun owners
Altogether killing only on average 3 deer per year. yet some suggest they all need aemi autos. so 6% hunt deer. of those probably 80% would use bolt action rifles (my Guess)
of the rest targeting other animals there is only 10,000 hunters of big game.
of the 10,000s remaining hunters they kill on average 99,000 pigs or ten per year 60% hunt with dogs so normally slit the throat of the cornered pig.
These hunters kill the majority of pigs Yet We have some suggesting they all need semi autos.
Just for their safety though, everyone else's safety is less important than theirs

So what's your point?

I would have thought that was obvious.
People that live in American and vote republican have low IQ's poor reading, reasoning and comprehension skills.

[jasonu]

I would have thought that was obvious.
People that live in American and vote republican have low IQ's poor reading, reasoning and comprehension skills.

Thanks to the Federal government Oregon (the state I live in) now has a several billion dollar cash excess which they will hand out to the Oregon tax payers in the form of a tax kicker. Trumps fault...
I'm going to use my refund to buy a few more guns.

[husaberg]

Thanks to the Federal government Oregon (the state I live in) now has a several billion dollar cash excess which they will hand out to the Oregon tax payers in the form of a tax kicker. Trumps fault...
I'm going to use my refund to buy a few more guns.

Cool we will just keep on having twice as many public holidays as Oregon. how many public holidays do you have a year in Oregon is it still 5 days.
Plus not being the place where they sentenced women to death for being witches.
A higher min wage
Lower unemployment
Free healthcare.
lower crime in NZ 28 times lower.
332 times lower murder rate in NZ
you are 75 times less likely for your wife or girlfriend sister or mother raped in NZ
there is also 100% less Americans in NZ.

[jasonu]

Cool we will just keep on having twice as many public holidays as Oregon. how many public holidays do you have a year in Oregon is it still 5 days.
Plus not being the place where they sentenced women to death for being witches.
A higher min wage
Lower unemployment
Free healthcare.
lower crime in NZ 28 times lower.
332 times lower murder rate in NZ
you are 75 times less likely for your wife or girlfriend sister or mother raped in NZ
there is also 100% less Americans in NZ.

Is that all you've got? You sound desperate.

[husaberg]

Is that all you've got? You sound desperate.

Most people would consider being 332 times more likely as significant, but who am i to say Americans don't want their loved ones being 75 times more likely to be raped.
or 332 times more likely to be killed.
But for most kiwis the 100% less Americans is more than enough.
Ps your av tax rate is the same as kiwis but you get a shit load less for it.
Nor does Oregon laws make employers pay vacation leave at all let alone the 4 weeks everyone gets in NZ
Nor does it entitle someone to get paid time and a half for working a public holiday let alone getting a day off in leu plus 1.5 times.
Shit Oregon doesn't even rate in the top 20 states in the US let alone the top countries in the world for quality of life.


https://www.usnews.com/news/best-cou...-life-rankings

[jasonu]

Most people would consider being 332 times more likely as significant, but who am i to say Americans don't want their loved ones being 75 times more likely to be raped.
or 332 times more likely to be killed.
But for most kiwis the 100% less Americans is more than enough.
Ps your av tax rate is the same as kiwis but you get a shit load less for it.
Nor does Oregon laws make employers pay vacation leave at all let alone the 4 weeks everyone gets in NZ
Nor does it entitle someone to get paid time and a half for working a public holiday let alone getting a day off in leu plus 1.5 times.
Shit Oregon doesn't even rate in the top 20 states in the US let alone the top countries in the world for quality of life.


https://www.usnews.com/news/best-cou...-life-rankings

Been there have you?

[husaberg]

Been there have you?

To all the countries in the world no, Have you been a Muslim, or a victim of gun violence, a black person, or any any minority, a women.
Have you ever needed to have an abortion as you were raped? i havent but i certainly would deny someone the optionn or suggest any group had lesser human rights.
Funny how You feel living in the USA qualifies you to have an opinion but not others.

I guess when you have nothing to counter the facts you have to resort to personal attacks.
Much like the NRA'a propaganda on how to distort the facts that you also use. (By shear co=incidence of course)
If the USA really was the land of the free and the home of the brave you might be able to take criticism and make the tough decisions rather than pandering to the religion and a cashed up gun an oil lobby.

[TheDemonLord]

It's not what you presume it to be, even a cursory glance at the referenced incident could tell you that. That you would take a list of 1000 incidents, and find some excuse to reduce that down to 14 without even the most rudimentary checking (and ignored the other 95% of the list which did not fit into the export), just shows how incredibly biased you are on this issue.

Then it seems you have a bit of explaining to do as to what your data means then - because 'GunCertain 1' would tend to indicate that the incident was Certain that a Gun was present with One of the attackers.

They are not as anomalous as the truck attacks are, since there are far more of them; do you understand what an anomaly is?

Is it something like one in 30 years? Is that about right?

Not the same, but also not a huge deal. Grab a bolt action instead. We clearly just have a subjective difference here, so I see no need to comment further on this point.

I agree we have a Subjective Difference here - that's kinda the issue. You have one view on it, where regardless of the outcome you don't experience a negative outcome and you are disregarding those who have a different view, those who do experience the Negative Outcome.

As for Grabbing a Bolt Action. You've got likely less than 100 Meters from the Herds starting location to where they become obscured - that's about 15 seconds worth of time - With a Semi-Auto in 5.56, that's 15 shots (Most of an Average Herd size), aimed on target comfortably. With a Bolt action (using the Mad Minute standard on an SMLE) - it's 3 shots.

Did that system work? Were no E-Cat weapons stolen?

No Murders were committed by Registered E-Cat rifles in 30 years that I could find.

Nope, I've got better shit to do than submit on that.

Clearly....

How do you know? It will close off the easy channel to them, thus it will penalize those who are not law abiding.

Step 1: Go to local Criminal Element
Step 2: Present large sums of Cash
Step 3: ????
Step 4: Firearm.

Care to point out the difficulty there?

How the fuck to you pull that logic from my statement? You're losing the plot again it would seem...

I'm taking the 'reduction of individual freedoms for the sake of reducing harm' to it's logical Extreme to show it's an untenable argument. I thought it was quite obvious....

Care to share that graph with the suicides removed then? Or perhaps you are making shit up that you want to be true rather than checking...

See the Blue line, with a gradual downward slope:

[Graystone]

Then it seems you have a bit of explaining to do as to what your data means then - because 'GunCertain 1' would tend to indicate that the incident was Certain that a Gun was present with One of the attackers.



Is it something like one in 30 years? Is that about right?



I agree we have a Subjective Difference here - that's kinda the issue. You have one view on it, where regardless of the outcome you don't experience a negative outcome and you are disregarding those who have a different view, those who do experience the Negative Outcome.

As for Grabbing a Bolt Action. You've got likely less than 100 Meters from the Herds starting location to where they become obscured - that's about 15 seconds worth of time - With a Semi-Auto in 5.56, that's 15 shots (Most of an Average Herd size), aimed on target comfortably. With a Bolt action (using the Mad Minute standard on an SMLE) - it's 3 shots.



No Murders were committed by Registered E-Cat rifles in 30 years that I could find.



Clearly....



Step 1: Go to local Criminal Element
Step 2: Present large sums of Cash
Step 3: ????
Step 4: Firearm.

Care to point out the difficulty there?



I'm taking the 'reduction of individual freedoms for the sake of reducing harm' to it's logical Extreme to show it's an untenable argument. I thought it was quite obvious....



See the Blue line, with a gradual downward slope:

Don't be such an idiot, firstly, it is GUNCERTAIN, not GunCertain, which is important, since it means Group Uncertain; ie, a flag to indicate that it is not certain that the group who claimed or was attributed to the attack, actually made it (a massive hint is that there are GUNCERTAIN columns for each listed perpetrator). This is why it is important to read things properly, rather than simply looking for what you want to see. Anyone with a pair of brain cells to rub together would understand that when presented with a database of 18 thousand gun related incidents causing death, it would be absurd to try say there were '14 fatalities due to firearms'.

It means different and abnormal, which can be on a scale; things that happen more often, are less abnormal / anomalous you see.

Which is not what I asked, were there none stolen?

Identifying criminal element, and finding large sums of cash, while not insurmountable, are more difficult than buying one legally. You argument would have more weight if you accepted the blindingly obvious instead of showing your bias time and time again by denying it.

Which is a logical fallacy, so thanks for proving my point.

Quite a drop from 96 to 02 it seems, the rate halved in about 8 years, nowhere else on the graph does that happen. Did anything of note happen around 1996?

[TheDemonLord]

Don't be such an idiot, firstly, it is GUNCERTAIN, not GunCertain, which is important, since it means Group Uncertain; ie, a flag to indicate that it is not certain that the group who claimed or was attributed to the attack, actually made it (a massive hint is that there are GUNCERTAIN columns for each listed perpetrator). This is why it is important to read things properly, rather than simply looking for what you want to see. Anyone with a pair of brain cells to rub together would understand that when presented with a database of 18 thousand gun related incidents causing death, it would be absurd to try say there were '14 fatalities due to firearms'.

Fair enough, that's why it's important to clarify things, Given the Context, it's not an unreasonable presumption, as for each perpetrator - well, that's whether or not each perpetrator was confirmed to have a Firearm - but, Clarification accepted: I'll re-look at the Spreadsheet.

It means different and abnormal, which can be on a scale; things that happen more often, are less abnormal / anomalous you see.

Like a single mass shooting in nearly 30 years - that would be Different and Abnormal yes?

Which is not what I asked, were there none stolen?

I know it's not what you asked - The NZ Police haven't published data to answer that Question. The important point is that they have not been used in Murders, in 30 years. That's the part you ignore. So clearly, that system worked and there was no reason for it to be removed.

Identifying criminal element, and finding large sums of cash, while not insurmountable, are more difficult than buying one legally. You argument would have more weight if you accepted the blindingly obvious instead of showing your bias time and time again by denying it.

You can Google gang Headquarters locations. They aren't exactly known for Subtlety, Subterfuge and Misdirection.
Let's assume the cost is double the current market rate - that's $3k for an AR-15, $6-7k for an AR-10, well within personal Loan limits, Even within Loan Shark limits (and if your intent is Mayhem, you aren't going to be worrying about Repayments)

Again - to someone hellbent on chaos, not exactly the huge hurdle you are making it out to be.

And we haven't even brought 3D printed receivers into the Mix yet.

Which is a logical fallacy, so thanks for proving my point.

It's Reductio ad Absurdum, which isn't inherently fallacious. Try again.

Quite a drop from 96 to 02 it seems, the rate halved in about 8 years, nowhere else on the graph does that happen. Did anything of note happen around 1996?

There's the same drop from about 1986-1994.

If you flatten out 1996 (ie removing the anomalous Port Arthur Massacre), then it shows a steady, downward trend that pre-dates the Gun Ban.

[Graystone]

Fair enough, that's why it's important to clarify things, Given the Context, it's not an unreasonable presumption, as for each perpetrator - well, that's whether or not each perpetrator was confirmed to have a Firearm - but, Clarification accepted: I'll re-look at the Spreadsheet.



Like a single mass shooting in nearly 30 years - that would be Different and Abnormal yes?



I know it's not what you asked - The NZ Police haven't published data to answer that Question. The important point is that they have not been used in Murders, in 30 years. That's the part you ignore. So clearly, that system worked and there was no reason for it to be removed.



You can Google gang Headquarters locations. They aren't exactly known for Subtlety, Subterfuge and Misdirection.
Let's assume the cost is double the current market rate - that's $3k for an AR-15, $6-7k for an AR-10, well within personal Loan limits, Even within Loan Shark limits (and if your intent is Mayhem, you aren't going to be worrying about Repayments)

Again - to someone hellbent on chaos, not exactly the huge hurdle you are making it out to be.

And we haven't even brought 3D printed receivers into the Mix yet.



It's Reductio ad Absurdum, which isn't inherently fallacious. Try again.



There's the same drop from about 1986-1994.

If you flatten out 1996 (ie removing the anomalous Port Arthur Massacre), then it shows a steady, downward trend that pre-dates the Gun Ban.

Also why it's important not to jump to unreasonable conclusions based on your bias...

Yes, it's abnormal for NZ, but not so much for the world. Your truck example has never happened in NZ, and is abnormal for the world. So you see how one of these things is more abnormal than the other?

What huge hurdle? I said it was not just law abiding citizens that would be penalised. As for googling gang headquarters and going there to ask to purchase black market weapons, are you off your meds?

86 to 94 is about 0.65 to 0.45, that isn't halving. Or are you expecting the same absolute drop rather than percentage? Because you know that not how trends work right?

[jasonu]

Good job the police are rounding up the guns from seemingly law abiding citizens...
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/a...ectid=12234369

[Swoop]

It appears that I was wrong when I made the comment of the confiscation buy-back costing 1 Billion dollars.

KPMG are using 2 Billion dollars as an internal costing figure at the moment. Perhaps they have factored in the hi-capacity pistol magazines which seem on the list for the "second trance" of confiscations.

[scumdog]

Yes, it's abnormal for NZ, but not so much for the world. Your truck example has never happened in NZ, and is abnormal for the world. So you see how one of these things is more abnormal than the other?


?

Ah, but a massacre of the magnitude of the Christchurch one had not happened prior to to this year - but it DID happen.

No guarantees a truck wont be used for the next massacre

[scumdog]

Colt did not get it totally wrong, it was the change of explosive that fouled the mechanism causing it to jam. Change of ammo stopped the problem of jamming. The change of rifling is the questionable one. I had a M16 and I liked it, just did not like the handle but liked the ability to move the bolt manually. Later I had an AR10 and that worked fine from a helicopter, was not impressed with the M16 in that role.

Yep, the type of propellant was the culprit - and was supplied as a result of a back-hand deal between a politician and a propellant manufacturer.

Said propellant was not to the specs required by the designer of the M16.

Who would have thought a politician could screw something up???