The firearm thread

[pritch]

So is that a firearm that is sold as a pump action .22 10 shot, for example, or Is that same gun, that actually can take 12 with one in the breech, going to be physically inspected by firearms officers and subsequently banned?
Asking for a friend...

I don't quite understand how you get to 12. Any 10 shot mag rifle will hold 11 with one up the spout. The advice from police locally was that the regulations refer to magazine capacity.

Obviously there are some firearms will take more than one type of cartridge, eg 357/38 or 22LR/22 short. These may then potentially hold a greater number of rounds than the mandated 10. The advice was that it is the original specification that counts, but that it would be unwise to be caught with more than 10 rounds in a magazine.

For my money anybody stupid enough to bring themselves to the attention of police while in possession of a rifle with more than 10 rounds in the mag is too stupid to have the firearm anyway.

[TheDemonLord]

To add to the above, specifically when people have asked about Shotguns taking cut-down shells that would increase the capacity over the limit - that the word from the Police is (again, acting as the Judiciary...) that the intent of the law is to limit capacity to no more than X number of rounds and any circumventing of that will get you into trouble.


Just more proof Positive of how well thought out the new laws weren't....

[TheDemonLord]

As more proof to how retarded the new laws are:

Semi-Autos are now harder to own than....










Full-Autos!

As an Example - a Full Auto M16, owned under a C-Cat licence is fine, but the magazines now requires a P Endorsement. Police have stated that owners of a C-Cat licence will not be automatically granted a P Endorsement.

However, if you remove the Auto-Sear from your Full-auto, it becomes a Prohibited Firearm and requires a separate P Endorsement.

[Laava]

I don't quite understand how you get to 12. Any 10 shot mag rifle will hold 11 with one up the spout. The advice from police locally was that the regulations refer to magazine capacity.

Obviously there are some firearms will take more than one type of cartridge, eg 357/38 or 22LR/22 short. These may then potentially hold a greater number of rounds than the mandated 10. The advice was that it is the original specification that counts, but that it would be unwise to be caught with more than 10 rounds in a magazine.

For my money anybody stupid enough to bring themselves to the attention of police while in possession of a rifle with more than 10 rounds in the mag is too stupid to have the firearm anyway.

Yeah so this "friend" of mine has a .22lr pump action with a tube mag that is sold and described as a ten shot. You can put 12 in it and one up the spout. So, my roundabout question was, do the cops expect to be removing these rifles from circulation or do they not know about this particular model or do they not care or will they want to physically inspect themselves to ascertain mag capacity? Obviously my "friend" has no idea that it can in fact hold 13 shots. Or would not even care but when the firearms register comes into effect, is it likely to become an issue?

[Swoop]

To add to the above, specifically when people have asked about Shotguns taking cut-down shells that would increase the capacity over the limit...

Totally immaterial as the legislation states "chamber length".
IF the shotty has an XYZ sized chamber, then that is what it is measured with when considering the magazine capacity.

[TheDemonLord]

Totally immaterial as the legislation states "chamber length".
IF the shotty has an XYZ sized chamber, then that is what it is measured with when considering the magazine capacity.

Indeed, however the Police have made official statements that doing so would be considered breaching the legislation.

[pritch]

Yeah so this "friend" of mine has a .22lr pump action with a tube mag that is sold and described as a ten shot. You can put 12 in it and one up the spout. So, my roundabout question was, do the cops expect to be removing these rifles from circulation or do they not know about this particular model or do they not care or will they want to physically inspect themselves to ascertain mag capacity? Obviously my "friend" has no idea that it can in fact hold 13 shots. Or would not even care but when the firearms register comes into effect, is it likely to become an issue?

OK I didn't see that coming. We were told that the specification was what counted, be it written on the gun or in the ad blurb but I don't think they were considering this situuation. In the immortal words of Harry Callahan though your 'friend' just has to ask himself one question, does he feel lucky?

The safe option would be hand it in and buy a new one that's problem free.

[Laava]

OK I didn't see that coming. We were told that the specification was what counted, be it written on the gun or in the ad blurb but I don't think they were considering this situuation. In the immortal words of Harry Callahan though your 'friend' just has to ask himself one question, does he feel lucky?

The safe option would be hand it in and buy a new one that's problem free.

Definitely a grey area, but given that it is a .22 and very old, it is probably not likely to be an issue. In fact it is almost an antique by todays stds...

[caseye]

Definitely a grey area, but given that it is a .22 and very old, it is probably not likely to be an issue. In fact it is almost an antique by todays stds...

What it is (Antique or not)is not the point.
It WILL be confiscated if you were silly enough to take it in and ask. Thats the point!

[scumdog]

Yeah so this "friend" of mine has a .22lr pump action with a tube mag that is sold and described as a ten shot. You can put 12 in it and one up the spout. So, my roundabout question was, do the cops expect to be removing these rifles from circulation or do they not know about this particular model or do they not care or will they want to physically inspect themselves to ascertain mag capacity? Obviously my "friend" has no idea that it can in fact hold 13 shots. Or would not even care but when the firearms register comes into effect, is it likely to become an issue?

Saw a guy take an semi-auto 22 in to the 'buy back' and walk back out with it when the cop there checked and it only held 10 cartridges, I can only guess the owner thought it was illegal somehow?

[scumdog]

It was in the info released by COLFO.
Whether or not the gubbinment intent was to actually involve a far greater amount of firearm types other than the Black (frothing at the mouth, media-frenzy inducing types) of firearms, is uncertain. I'm suspecting a deliberate approach.

Bit of a contradiction really.

Not all self-loaders are banned and even the ecilop "fact" sheet is incorrect and shows they haven't read the Act.

What self-loader centrefire rifle isn't banned?

To my understanding all are - including an ancient four shot with a fixed magazine model I know of.

[husaberg]

What self-loader centrefire rifle isn't banned?

To my understanding all are - including an ancient four shot with a fixed magazine model I know of.

thats the third time you have tried to muddy the waters with that one
That one is on the last as it can take a larger mag than 4 shots.

---

So why are bolt action 22 rifles with a 12 shot tube mag being banned?

Or grandads 1905 35 Remington semi auto with non-detachable 4 shot mag also being banned?

The media waffle on about how good it is that MSSA weapons have been banned but tip-toe past the guns such as those above - maybe they dont look 'evil' enough? (whatever evil looks like....?)

And the non-knowing think 'banned guns' just means M15/AK47 type guns - unaware it includes the type I mentioned above.

We have had this same discussion already i explained then why the the reasons have not changed since. Knock yourself out refuting what you couldn't before.

Do you know anyone who has extended the magazine on a tube mag 22?

Why would they bother when you can now legally have a ten shot semi auto with a detachable mag...easier to change the mag on that than to top up a tube magazine wouldn't you think?

The sporting BAR does not readily (if at all) lend itself to fitting a larger mag, the Winchester 100 MAY have larger mags available but in all my years I've yet to see one.

And as unlicensed people have been charged and convicted with unlawful possession of ammunition the law doesn't really need undated in that respect.

EDIT: Looked on interwebby thing and 8 or 10 shot mags available for Model 100, not common and you can't import them any more - plus hardly 'high capacity' like 30 round AK47 mag etc.

the two weapons you mention were both deemed to not comply as one had a tube magazine that was larger, than the defined max, i said, it could be modified to make it comply (ie smaller)
The Winchester 100 has a detachable mag that can be fitted that was larger than the defined min . than the legal min so ity doesnt comply they have been available for probably 40 years. End of story.
As for the legal ruling i said go argue the law with the people that create it.

My Brother has the family Winchester 1910 they are on the list too, i have never seen a mag bigger than 4 or 5 either but they were likely available at some stage, its mute anyway as you cant buy ammo in 401 Winchester unless you are prepared to make it out of 7.62 Russian. but thats the way the cookie crumbles.
You could also haveeither Winchester professionally modified so it will not accept a detachable mag to comply.
Or you could apply for the appropriate licence to own them. or modify them for display use only.

with the Winchester 100 large mag mag you can according to a process showed on a website pretty simply modify a HK 30 and lager mag to fit

I doubt anybody considering mass murder would pick a Winchester Model 100 - too hard to get large magazines and lots of them.

At the end of the day the useless shit 'law makers' have effectively banned ANY self loading centrefire rifle, regardless of magazine capacity.

But they constantly waffle on about M15 this and MSSA that and conveniently fail to mention the Winchester 100 etc.

Odd you have an issue with this yet you have never mentioned any problem with the people who brought in AR15 especially modified to get around a law that was meant to ban them. They expoiting a series of loopholes that the gun lobby fought hard to maintain.
If it wasnt for the greed of the Gun sellers in doing this its unlikely that we would be having this conversation.
I am well prepared to forfeit some rights so even if that means that now i can't own a gun that no one really needs, In order to attempt to make NZ a safer place.
Obviously you dont think the same, I can live with that, the world would be a boring place if we all agreed.

[scumdog]

thats the third time you have tried to muddy the waters with that one
That one is on the last as it can take a larger mag than 4 shots.

---

We have had this same discussion already i explained then why the the reasons have not changed since. Knock yourself out refuting what you couldn't before.

But the one that can't??

[husaberg]

But the one that can't??

I pointed out you keep trying to misrepresent the same scenario when you know why its prohibited "whether" you agree with the law is irrelevant.
The reasoning is its capable. Exactly the same as the AR15 used to kill those 50 or so individuals. Whilst at the time the AR15 with the altered pistol grip and small mag were a Class legal with the original small mag, it was a simple mater to put in larger mags.

[Laava]

Saw a guy take an semi-auto 22 in to the 'buy back' and walk back out with it when the cop there checked and it only held 10 cartridges, I can only guess the owner thought it was illegal somehow?

So do they actually load it up to make sure it can only have 10 in the mag, or just go by make and model?