The firearm thread

[TheDemonLord]

The right to own slaves?

There's 2 ways to answer this: the first is to point out the very many people that fought a series of wars over that 'right'

The second is to point to the concept of Natural Rights which does not and cannot include Slavery.

Since I hold the position of ascribing to the concept of Natural Rights (which includes the right to self-defence and from that flows the right to own Weaponary, including Firearms. It also includes property rights), then I can stand on that ideal and say what was done in NZ was wrong, whilst still condemning Slavery.

[TheDemonLord]

Scary stuff. I've seen a thread about that on a firearms related site I watch, it's slightly concerning that there is no explanation of the cause. The round was a sub calibre, sabot style, armour piercing round, apparently a double charge should not be possible, so why the gun exploded remains a mystery.

Gun Jesus (Ian McCollum) from Forgotten Weapons did an excellent break down of the most likely cause(s), as well as digressing about the other types of failures

Either someone re-filled the round with the wrong powder or
Some Gun Powder compounds when they degrade can become more unstable - resulting in a higher peak pressure than normal, which caused the catastrophic failure.

If you look at the orignal video - you'll see that one of the rounds had a significantly bigger 'bang' than the others - I suspect that was also either an incorrectly handloaded/reloaded cartridge or the powder was iffy.

[TheDemonLord]

Usually ... MORE fines ...

Ah yes, the age old Government response 'what we are doing isn't working, let's do it some more!'

So ... you do NOT/WOULD not have a shared enjoyment of shooting with HIM. What makes YOU different to shooting with any OTHER shooter ... Only the target varies.

I suspect most of the Firearm owners wouldn't have any shared Enjoyment of shooting with him...

That he'd be in custody by nightfall ... ???

He stated he wanted the NZ Government to ban certain types of rifles, which they practically fell over themselves to do. He then states his hope was that this would create a ripple effect in the US, where they would also try and do a confiscation and that would spark a civil war.

Sounds like you agree with his aim ... (excuse the pun) ... or like his demented imagination ... you might have more in common with him than you think ...

I completely disagree with his aim. I don't buy into the Climate Crisis/extinction rebellion/depopulation narrative.

That is not to say that the means by which he stated he wanted to achieve his objectives and his prediction of the reaction to his act didn't have an internally consistent logic and a number of accurate predictions.

So ... Greenpeace need more wars to help achieve their aim ... (excuse the pun ... again) ...

Greenpeace want less humans so that nature can flourish, some of them aren't too picky about the ways and means.

I hadn't noticed .... but with your shared enjoyment of shooting ... you might get on well with him ...

[TheDemonLord]

Wars have been started with less ...

Quite...

Your guess ... at best. The only concern is which group is it that still have the most undeclared firearms in their possession .. ?? Gangs or your average law abiding (sic) citizen ... ??


Regardless of the actual class of weapons in their possession ... the important detail that actually isn't known (just uneducated guesses so far) is numbers. For EITHER group.

The ~60,000 is from the Government sources. The other estimates of 180,000 (based on import documentation over 10 years from all of the major Firearm retailers), The Media and the Government had the figure of 250,000 pre-buyback (funny how they've been awfully quiet on touting that number after the initial period....).

The 250,000 estimate was the lower limit of between 600,000 (upper limit) and 250,000 (the one the media picked... maybe to convince NZ it wasn't going to cost half a Billion Dollars if everything was handed in), with a middle estimate of around 400,000.

Even using the lowest estimate (which based on it's manner of calculation is fairly accuracte) - less than 30% handed in.

As for the concern - I have zero concern about Fit and proper persons retaining ownership of something that was undemocratically stripped of them.

I have every concern about criminals (who commits 97% of all Firearm crime in NZ) retaining ownership.

[FJRider]

Or Righteous.

That's also a possibility.

Righteous seldom means being right ... or even in the right.

Distinct possibility even ...

Where you conscripted at gunpoint?

Even when there was the Draft and Conscription, there were still conscientious Objectors

Your comprehension skills are lacking somewhat ... try reading what I posted.

I joined the Army of my own free will. But I didn't join to be shot at. But I did know it might happen some time. There was NO war at this time ... so when the shooting started ... I didn't want to be there.

How many times has this happened since you've been living at your own home? That's where the comparison pales a little.

Not often. There are a few people living near a Mosque in Christchurch ... that never thought they'd hear gunfire from their house. So it can happen. Your point is ... ??

And yet, you have it anyway.

Thank you for saying that.

There's a discrete psychological difference between the two.

Similar to why people will buy something that is 99c but not if it's a Dollar.

You didn't pay anything to own it, you already owned it, postage was just to transfer it.

I gave you the military term for acquisition of the weapon. You can't use psychology to describe how I acquired it ... if you do not know the actual circumstances involved. My description might be closer that you think. But you are talking about circumstances you were not involved in ... and know little (or nothing) about.

Par for the course in most of your posts ...

There is no 1 cent pieces any more ... and I can stand the loss of 1 cent. (I'm not as cheap as you).

I paid costs to get it home. Costs are costs ... freight cost are added to most items in the freighting of goods ... it just adds to it's value.

In this case ... I was not expecting any financial reimbursement from the weapon. Nor did I get any. As financial reimbursement was not the reason I handed it in.


But the look on the Cop's face when I produced it ... could only be described as PRICELESS ...

[TheDemonLord]

Righteous seldom means being right ... or even in the right.

Distinct possibility even ...

Someone raised the question of the right to own Slaves, those that opposed it were very much in the minority, both in England and Globally, were they Righteous? They stood on the same principles of Natural Rights that I stand on.

Your comprehension skills are lacking somewhat ... try reading what I posted.

I joined the Army of my own free will. But I didn't join to be shot at. But I did know it might happen some time. There was NO war at this time ... so when the shooting started ... I didn't want to be there.

There was a reason I wanted you to confirm that. Few people join to be shot at and I would imagine that when the shooting started even fewer people want to be there.

There is, however, a difference between volunteering for something, knowing the possibilities, and it being forced upon you. A Very deep and profound difference.

Not often. There are a few people living near a Mosque in Christchurch ... that never thought they'd hear gunfire from their house. So it can happen. Your point is ... ??

The increase in Gang related Firearm crime, as a direct result from the current Governments actions.

I gave you the military term for acquisition of the weapon. You can't use psychology to describe how I acquired it ... if you do not know the actual circumstances involved. My description might be closer that you think. But you are talking about circumstances you were not involved in ... and know little (or nothing) about.

Par for the course in most of your posts ...

There is no 1 cent pieces any more ... and I can stand the loss of 1 cent. (I'm not as cheap as you).

I paid costs to get it home. Costs are costs ... freight cost are added to most items in the freighting of goods ... it just adds to it's value.

In this case ... I was not expecting any financial reimbursement from the weapon. Nor did I get any. As financial reimbursement was not the reason I handed it in.

The last line says a lot - more specifically that the item, at the point in time, had no value to you (or at least no value that you were happy to loose) - and that is the key difference.

The Majority (over 70%) of owners clearly DO have a Value in what they own, a value so great, that they are willing to risk the consequences of retaining it.

The reasons why they hold such a value might vary - but suffice to say, your comparison doesn't hold weight, because you are comparing something you didn't value with something they did.

But the look on the Cop's face when I produced it ... could only be described as PRICELESS ...

I can only imagine

[FJRider]

The ~60,000 is from the Government sources. The other estimates of 180,000 (based on import documentation over 10 years from all of the major Firearm retailers), The Media and the Government had the figure of 250,000 pre-buyback (funny how they've been awfully quiet on touting that number after the initial period....).

The 250,000 estimate was the lower limit of between 600,000 (upper limit) and 250,000 (the one the media picked... maybe to convince NZ it wasn't going to cost half a Billion Dollars if everything was handed in), with a middle estimate of around 400,000.

Even using the lowest estimate (which based on it's manner of calculation is fairly accuracte) - less than 30% handed in.

Their estimations on firearms numbers ... are as factual as their estimations on un-registered / un-warranted motor vehicles being used on the road.

As per your first paragraph ... their estimates have been (very) wrong before.

Some "New" information (like after a Police raid on a known Gang HQ) will shed light on possible truth of those numbers.

As for the concern - I have zero concern about Fit and proper persons retaining ownership of something that was undemocratically stripped of them.

The Laws that changed ... were changed by a Democratically Elected Government. Following the required due (and legal) process.

I have every concern about criminals (who commits 97% of all Firearm crime in NZ) retaining ownership.

Something to think about ... At some stage, firearms need maintenance and repair. Most people doing firearms repairs require to see a firearms license before working on them. Thusly ... two questions need be asked.

1) How many (percentage wise) such "Illegal weapons" cannot actually be fired ... ???

2) How many (percentage wise) can be still fired ... but are in a dangerous condition .. ??




Your above mentioned numbers that were originally estimated ... are being shown as "probably" not accurate.

If the same people are making the new estimates ...

[FJRider]

Ah yes, the age old Government response 'what we are doing isn't working, let's do it some more!'

It is the high numbers still paying their fines ... that allow the Government to keep those in the Welfare system ... with the high standard of living that they are now able to enjoy.

He stated he wanted the NZ Government to ban certain types of rifles, which they practically fell over themselves to do. He then states his hope was that this would create a ripple effect in the US, where they would also try and do a confiscation and that would spark a civil war.

The post I quoted you on ... you stated he accurately predicted the POLICE response ... not the NZ Government response. More topic changing from you.

I completely disagree with his aim. I don't buy into the Climate Crisis/extinction rebellion/depopulation narrative.

Neither do I actually.

That is not to say that the means by which he stated he wanted to achieve his objectives and his prediction of the reaction to his act didn't have an internally consistent logic and a number of accurate predictions.

A good war can boost all the countries involved economy ... and lower the population. Win win eh ... !!!

Greenpeace want less humans so that nature can flourish, some of them aren't too picky about the ways and means.

They aren't picky about tactic's used to gain attention and publicity ... but I think they might balk at starting a war to achieve their intention.

[FJRider]

Someone raised the question of the right to own Slaves, those that opposed it were very much in the minority, both in England and Globally, were they Righteous? They stood on the same principles of Natural Rights that I stand on.

A lot of the slave owners in the 'States were "God Fearing people" ... but the ownership of a few hundred slaves didn't seem to affect their attendance in Church any. They saw it as their "Natural Right" to own slaves. And a Civil war was fought over it.

Wars do not prove who is right ... just who is stronger or who has better weapons and numbers.

There was a reason I wanted you to confirm that. Few people join to be shot at and I would imagine that when the shooting started even fewer people want to be there.

Surprisingly (even in NZ) ... a large number actually do. ALL kiwi's that went to Vietnam did so as volunteers. Some didn't come home.

There is, however, a difference between volunteering for something, knowing the possibilities, and it being forced upon you. A Very deep and profound difference.

The incident I referred to was not "Forced" on me. Any more than as is your (or my) involvement in a motor vehicle accident would be. It happened. Not planned ... but similar incidents have happened there before. We all only had one full magazine (18 rounds) of live ammo each. As per policy there at the time. The "In case of wild animal attack" policy.

And I will not stop driving ... even if there is a possibility I might be involved in a motor vehicle accident.

Not deep or profound. Just plain and simple.

You really do seem to have an active imagination though. Is it the drugs .. ??

The increase in Gang related Firearm crime, as a direct result from the current Governments actions.

No increase ... just better / more reporting of it.

Maybe more snitches too ...

The last line says a lot - more specifically that the item, at the point in time, had no value to you (or at least no value that you were happy to loose) - and that is the key difference.

At the time of handing it in ... I had a very well qualified Gunsmith render the weapon unusable. NO part of it could be used on any other weapon of it's type. But you'd need to look closely to see that. If you knew what to look for.

Value (as is beauty) is in the eye of the valuer/beholder. Basically ... I valued my continued freedom more and I wasn't willing to risk that to keep it in my possession. And I handed it in with no regrets.

The Majority (over 70%) of owners clearly DO have a Value in what they own, a value so great, that they are willing to risk the consequences of retaining it.

Personal choice. A lawful decision ... it wouldn't be. Another ... "They'll never catch me" situation. Maybe ... some won't. But it is NOT within their "RIGHT'S" to do so.

The reasons why they hold such a value might vary - but suffice to say, your comparison doesn't hold weight, because you are comparing something you didn't value with something they did.

See above my comment on "Value" ...

I can only imagine

With your imagination ... I don't doubt that ...

I couldn't tell if he was drooling or dribbling. And his eye's ...

[pritch]

Gun Jesus (Ian McCollum) from Forgotten Weapons did an excellent break down of the most likely cause(s), as well as digressing about the other types of failures

Either someone re-filled the round with the wrong powder or
Some Gun Powder compounds when they degrade can become more unstable - resulting in a higher peak pressure than normal, which caused the catastrophic failure.

If you look at the orignal video - you'll see that one of the rounds had a significantly bigger 'bang' than the others - I suspect that was also either an incorrectly handloaded/reloaded cartridge or the powder was iffy.

I watched your clip but it didn't contribute anything new, we still have no precise idea what happened. Having said that, the various design refinements he showed were interesting.

From watching the original clip it seems that a variety of ammunition was being used. Heat can cause excessive pressure but the range appeared shaded and the ammunition was originaly designed for use in the desert so that shouldn't be a factor.

Is it even possible to reload SLAP rounds?

Guess we'll never know what happened.

[pritch]

Greenpeace want less humans so that nature can flourish, some of them aren't too picky about the ways and means.

People who hold such views tend to assume they and theirs will benefit from the reduction in numbers. As opposed to being some of those umm eliminated.

[TheDemonLord]

I watched your clip but it didn't contribute anything new, we still have no precise idea what happened. Having said that, the various design refinements he showed were interesting.

From watching the original clip it seems that a variety of ammunition was being used. Heat can cause excessive pressure but the range appeared shaded and the ammunition was originaly designed for use in the desert so that shouldn't be a factor.

Is it even possible to reload SLAP rounds?

Guess we'll never know what happened.

So it turns out that the designer/owner of Serbu Firearms (Mark Serbu) has a YT channel and posted a small update about it - the TL;DR version is that Kentucky Ballistics are going to send him the Rifle (what's left of it) and Ammo and he's going to do a deep dive into why it failed.

Here's the short clip - so you can decide if you want to keep updated on the deep dive

[scumdog]

I watched your clip but it didn't contribute anything new, we still have no precise idea what happened. Having said that, the various design refinements he showed were interesting.

From watching the original clip it seems that a variety of ammunition was being used. Heat can cause excessive pressure but the range appeared shaded and the ammunition was originaly designed for use in the desert so that shouldn't be a factor.

Is it even possible to reload SLAP rounds?

Guess we'll never know what happened.

It sure made for exciting watching!
I still wonder at the structural integrity of that kind of breech?

[pritch]

The NRA has lost it's bid to declare bankruptcy in New York. The judge declared it a bad faith attempt to fend off legal action by the New York Attorney General.

Next move the NY AG?

[pritch]

A look at gun control in the US. Factual not fable.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/histo...est-180968013/