The firearm thread

[sugilite:Me]

I'll admit I've not read all the details of all the different draft proposed universal background checks - however, given how the discussions I've had with my Yank friends, it's almost always that they come up with some weird and wacky system that is either overly tyrannical or overlying invasive to try and get private sales to do background checks.

Yeah, much better to not work together and just stand by why children get murdered at schools pretty much every week. Thoughts and prayers to the rescue.

[TheDemonLord]

Yeah, much better to not work together and just stand by why children get murdered at schools pretty much every week. Thoughts and prayers to the rescue.

That's one perspective.

There's another perspective that one side isn't acting in good faith, having a fundamental problem with the US Constitution.

And an even wilder perspective would be to point out that 'mass shootings', make up a small percentage of Firearm murders in the US, to the tune of around 300 vs 15,000.

Most of which happen in heavily democrat areas (Chicago, California etc) due to rampant crime and gun laws that target the law abiding citizen.

Now, who do we know that is very left wing, introduced 'strict' new gun laws in response to a tragedy and has advocated being 'kind', only to have a significant increase in gun crime?

Almost like there's a causal link...

[Kickaha]

Most of which happen in heavily democrat areas (Chicago, California etc) due to rampant crime and gun laws that target the law abiding citizen.

Most of which are committed with guns trafficked in from areas with lax gun laws

[TheDemonLord]

Most of which are committed with guns trafficked in from areas with lax gun laws

A line I've heard often, but the data that backs it up isn't quite so clear. Now, I'm not saying that it doesn't happen - but when the claim is that someone in New York is going all the way to Texas or Florida to do a straw purchase, when there are a number of states in between with laws that aren't as strict as NY, it makes me skeptical.

Especially when often the focus is 'against' Red states with constitutionally based Firearm laws. Almost like there is a bias or agenda in the research.

However, as experience in London has shown (as a very good example) if you remove the Guns, Inner city gangs will find other ways to be violent towards each other.

[YellowDog]

A line I've heard often, but the data that backs it up isn't quite so clear. Now, I'm not saying that it doesn't happen - but when the claim is that someone in New York is going all the way to Texas or Florida to do a straw purchase, when there are a number of states in between with laws that aren't as strict as NY, it makes me skeptical.

Especially when often the focus is 'against' Red states with constitutionally based Firearm laws. Almost like there is a bias or agenda in the research.

However, as experience in London has shown (as a very good example) if you remove the Guns, Inner city gangs will find other ways to be violent towards each other.

Culturally, suggesting that an 18 year old Texan shouldn't be able to buy guns unhindered is pointless. They just claim: "People die every day everywhere". The historical influence from their Cowboys and Indians heritage ain't gonna change. However there are many states in the US of a less third-world culture and that should present a good starting point for a 'lead by example' initiative.

I'm in London ATM. There's very little gun crime however knife crime has escalated hugely.

[TheDemonLord]

Culturally, suggesting that an 18 year old Texan shouldn't be able to buy guns unhindered is pointless. They just claim: "People die every day everywhere". The historical influence from their Cowboys and Indians heritage ain't gonna change. However there are many states in the US of a less third-world culture and that should present a good starting point for a 'lead by example' initiative.

The problem that you will face is that the US look to those other states and other parts of the world and saw just how quickly their freedoms were revoked during Covid. That, if anything, provided the strongest rebuttal and proved that a well armed society is a free society.

I'm still waiting on the facts though - I've heard from sources that he did pass background checks, I've heard from other sources that he had a history of Violence.

I also saw a quote from his Mother, and suffice to say - I think I know one factor based on that.

I'm in London ATM. There's very little gun crime however knife crime has escalated hugely.

Exactly, it's not the tools, it's the people. Take away Guns, they'll use Knives. Take away Knives, they'll use Trucks. Take away Trucks, they'll use Fertilizer.

Any sufficiently motivated person will find a way to inflict mass carnage.

[sugilite:Me]

This 4 star admiral has some interesting things to say about the gun issue in the states, also some interesting comments on Nato and what is going on at the moment.

[TheDemonLord]

This 4 star admiral has some interesting things to say about the gun issue in the states, also some interesting comments on Nato and what is going on at the moment.

I would reply with 3 words to his 3 words.

'Read the Constitution'

and then remind him of the Oath he swore when he enlisted:

I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic

[sugilite:Me]

I would reply with 3 words to his 3 words.

'Read the Constitution'

and then remind him of the Oath he swore when he enlisted:

I'm sure that the 4 star admiral and previous grand poobah of NATO would warmly welcome your advice.

It is almost like he is saying that the constitution in it's current form has become an enormous problem. A problem the right do not want to fix. The right, including yourself it would appear, essentially support children getting murdered week in week out.
I wonder if an 18 year old managed to bust into congress or the senate and gun down 20 or 30 of them every few weeks or so, I wonder how fast the constitution might get amended then?

[TheDemonLord]

I'm sure that the 4 star admiral and previous grand poobah of NATO would warmly welcome your advice.

It is almost like he is saying that the constitution in it's current form has become an enormous problem. A problem the right do not want to fix. The right, including yourself it would appear, essentially support children getting murdered week in week out.
I wonder if an 18 year old managed to bust into congress or the senate and gun down 20 or 30 of them every few weeks or so, I wonder how fast the constitution might get amended then?

I think the bigger question is how much better would the country be run.....

You say the Right do not want to fix it - I think it's more accurate to say that the Right reject the assertion that the change being requested will fix it and furthermore, it cannot be fixed without an Amendment.

Show me the Democrats that have put forward an attempt to amend the second amendment, if not - then they are being dishonest.

And again - there's no guarantee that banning the latest Weapon du Jour is going to solve the issue - plenty of malevolent people have used alternate means to commit mass murder.

[sugilite:Me]

You say the Right do not want to fix it - I think it's more accurate to say that the Right reject the assertion that the change being requested will fix it and furthermore, it cannot be fixed without an Amendment.

So what are the right proposing to make meaningful change? They are very good at blocking, are they as good at fixing?
In More Than 100 GOP midterm Ads This Year: Guns, Guns, Guns. For Republicans, brandishing firepower is a visual shorthand for hard-core conservatism.

Show me the Democrats that have put forward an attempt to amend the second amendment, if not - then they are being dishonest.

Dunno, I see any and every option they put forward being swatted down by the right, with seemingly no meaningful fix of their own being touted. I've read 90% of polled population want some sort of restrictions put in place. It is almost like the NRA political donations are causing some sort of conflict of interest to go against 90% of the population.

And again - there's no guarantee that banning the latest Weapon du Jour is going to solve the issue - plenty of malevolent people have used alternate means to commit mass murder.

The Americans have bought weekly mass murder upon themselves. Constantly doing nothing has created this. So what, you are saying, continue to do nothing as there is no guarantees it will stop, so keep doing nothing. This is why I say, essentially you support the status quo of children being constantly murdered.

No rebuttal on my how fast would the amendment would get changed if it were the pollies getting shot up on a weekly basis by 18 year olds running around with AR's 3 years before they can legally buy a beer?

The thing that really sticks in my craw, is watching the likes of Abbott visit the school, and do a bunch of postured press conferences. Seriously, it makes me want to vomit.

What might the supreme court be looking at doing in this time of crisis?
https://www.brennancenter.org/our-wo...ent-gun-rights

If they really do this - it just supports my accusation they are nothing more than pollies in drag doing their parties bidding. You can come in and wank on about how they should be allowed to carry guns as per the amendment blah blah. Seems to me gun fans like yourself are fine with wholesale murder, just as long as it does not directly involve you or your families.
This massive disconnect within humanity has manifested into government sanctioned country wide mass murder in the USA with no end in sight.

[TheDemonLord]

So what are the right proposing to make meaningful change? They are very good at blocking, are they as good at fixing?
In More Than 100 GOP midterm Ads This Year: Guns, Guns, Guns. For Republicans, brandishing firepower is a visual shorthand for hard-core conservatism.

It's almost like there's been a whole bunch of Left Wing Riots, Defund the Police and an assault on Personal Liberties.

So yes, Guns Guns Guns because Force is the ultimate Arbiter of Right and Wrong.

Dunno, I see any and every option they put forward being swatted down by the right, with seemingly no meaningful fix of their own being touted. I've read 90% of polled population want some sort of restrictions put in place. It is almost like the NRA political donations are causing some sort of conflict of interest to go against 90% of the population.

Okay - let's take that on face value - the Right have enough Electoral support to Swat down every option and this action does not cause them to loose their voterbase.

What does that say about 90% of the Population?

Secondly - they are trying every way possible except for the only way that is honest. They are seeking to undermine, or evade 2A - however it was written to be unambigous - Shall not be Infringed.

And the Dems know that if they try and touch the Bill of Rights, they will go down faster than a Lead Balloon.

The Americans have bought weekly mass murder upon themselves. Constantly doing nothing has created this. So what, you are saying, continue to do nothing as there is no guarantees it will stop, so keep doing nothing. This is why I say, essentially you support the status quo of children being constantly murdered.

Hold up - let's look at the UK - You have Hungerford - so they Banned Semi-Autos.

Then you had Dunblaine, so they Banned Pistols

Then you had Cumbria

Then you had Plymouth

Now, the Death Toll for Hungerford was 16, approximately the same for Dunblaine, Cumbria (which used a Bolt Action and a Shotgun) was 12, and Plymouth was 5.

12 isn't too far away from 16 - banning the type of Gun didn't stop an individual with malevolent intent from carrying it out. And that's not even the greatest loss of life - Terrorist Bombings come to mind.

During the same time from Dunblaine, NZ maintained a large supply of Semi-Autos and didn't have an issue till 2019 (when the Police didn't do their Job).

My point is - Banning does not fix the problem. However - some things that are of interest - How many of these people had diagnosed Mental issues, how many were on Medication? How many felt rejected by society and decided to burn the literal village down?

No rebuttal on my how fast would the amendment would get changed if it were the pollies getting shot up on a weekly basis by 18 year olds running around with AR's 3 years before they can legally buy a beer?

But it's not - Rifles (of which the AR is classified) is used in a fraction of Gun Violence in the US - 2% of all Homocides and it's like 300-400 out of 15,000 for Gun Murders.

The thing that really sticks in my craw, is watching the likes of Abbott visit the school, and do a bunch of postured press conferences. Seriously, it makes me want to vomit.

Just like how I felt when Jacinda did the same.

What might the supreme court be looking at doing in this time of crisis?
https://www.brennancenter.org/our-wo...ent-gun-rights

This comes back to my point about Roe V Wade - whether you agree or not with it (In this case the NZ Lockdowns, Vaccine Passports and other wholesale abuse of Ancient Rights and Liberties have put me firmly on the 2A train) - The Law is what it is - and it is the Justice's job to uphold the Law.

If they really do this - it just supports my accusation they are nothing more than pollies in drag doing their parties bidding. You can come in and wank on about how they should be allowed to carry guns as per the amendment blah blah.

Well, no, that's exactly it - if they Law says they are allowed to, then they are allowed to - if you don't think they should - then change the Law - but no one is saying that cause they know it would be suicide.

Seems to me gun fans like yourself are fine with wholesale murder, just as long as it does not directly involve you or your families.
This massive disconnect within humanity has manifested into government sanctioned country wide mass murder in the USA with no end in sight.

I'd be in favour of greater numbers of licenced Firearm owners who were properly vetted by the Police and whose armed resistance provided a bulwark against Government Encroachment.

Again, Equal and Opposite reaction - you piss on my rights, I'm going to get more passionate about defending them.

[Kickaha]

Secondly - they are trying every way possible except for the only way that is honest. They are seeking to undermine, or evade 2A - however it was written to be unambigous - Shall not be Infringed.

There are multiple types of people who aren't allowed to possess firearms in the USA so the whole shall not be infringed is a load of crap

My point is - Banning does not fix the problem.

They're not talking about banning them

[TheDemonLord]

There are multiple types of people who aren't allowed to possess firearms in the USA so the whole shall not be infringed is a load of crap

Mainly Felons and people with histories of Violence.

Felons have generally been excluded from certain rights and protections, Histories of Violence is more nuanced.

they're not talking about banning them

They've been wanting to Ban scary black rifles in the US since the 1980s.

[Kickaha]

Mainly Felons and people with histories of Violence.

Felons have generally been excluded from certain rights and protections, Histories of Violence is more nuanced.

What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand