The firearm thread

[F5 Dave]

I think the vast majority of the population never realised how lax our gun laws were. There are a fuck lot of gun violence incidents despite being lowest employment levels currently. Dont expect it to get better if the economy tanks.

Also don't expect it to get better if we release more guns into the country. The more guns, the more trading and stealing and use of them on family members.

That's just math on available data.

[TheDemonLord]

i suppose it is no use noting that of cars, power tools and firearms, only one is expressly designed to kill when used in the manner intended, and of the other two, the manufacturers go to great lengths to prevent injury or death, even when not used expressly as designed or by a suitably qualified person.

Or defend, when used in the manner intended....

And those that are killed, are still dead.

This Freedom comes at a cost.

[TheDemonLord]

So the rest of the world is wrong but the US is right?
We should follow the example of doing nothing like the USA do, while kids get shoot and mass shootings to increase every year?

Given how many Semi-Autos are still out there, if there's another mass shooting before 2045, we'll know the new laws didn't change shit.

Also note
But when comparing that to population, the rate of firearms related injuries were the fifth worst on record, with the previous highest being 2016.
So your figures a re a bit doubtful they also don't take into account the effect of the increase in NZ organized crime brought about as a result of the 501 deportees

'When compared to Population'

Translation:

'When we adjust the figures downwards because it makes our stats look better because our Population has increased'

Also odd as in reality after a British gunman killed 16 people in 1987, the country banned semiautomatic weapons like those he had used.
It did the same with most handguns after a 1996 school shooting.
It now has one of the lowest gun-related death rates in the developed world.

But neither of those laws stopped the Cumbria shooting in 2010, killing 12 people.

In Australia, a 1996 massacre prompted mandatory gun buybacks that saw, with as many as one million firearms melted into slag.
The rate of mass shootings plummeted from once every 18 months to, so far, only one in the 26 years since.

No, that's a lie - using the FBI definition of 'Mass shooting' there have been at least 10, Including 2 IIRC that used banned Firearms.

Canada changed gun laws after a 1989 mass shooting.
So did Germany in 2002,
New Zealand in 2019

Germany had a mass shooting in 2009 and again in 2016.
Canada in 2018 and 1999

Seems these Gun Law changes don't actually stop someone who is truly determined.

Norway 2021.

How interesting - I can see newspaper posts saying they were going to change their laws in 2021, but when I go to the actual Norwegian law, I can't find any record of a Ban of Semi-Autos.

Semi-Autos that can be easily converted to Full Auto are banned - but that's about all I could find (admitedly with Google Translate) - but then when you copy and paste the New York Times (who copy and paste from other useless sources) what do you expect?

[husaberg]

i suppose it is no use noting that of cars, power tools and firearms, only one is expressly designed to kill when used in the manner intended, and of the other two, the manufacturers go to great lengths to prevent injury or death, even when not used expressly as designed or by a suitably qualified person.

I have figured you might already know the answer, but dont fear, no mater what you actually write, capt multi-quote will just counter points you never made.

[Berries]

But neither of those laws stopped the Cumbria shooting in 2010, killing 12 people.
Germany had a mass shooting in 2009 and again in 2016.
Canada in 2018 and 1999
Seems these Gun Law changes don't actually stop someone who is truly determined.

A few pages ago you quoted four UK mass shootings which covered a 34 year period. Is it just a simple coincidence that there have been 34 mass shootings in the US so far this year? You seem like an intelligent chap, but on this topic you just appear argumentative for the sake of being argumentative. Any same person must realise that the constitution needs changing if that is what is behind all this needless killing. Jeez, I am pretty sure I cant go back to England and shoot someone in a duel and expect legislation from 1723 to save me from prison. Times change, legislation needs to change as well.

I believe in Freedom, knowing that with freedom there will be people who are killed and people who will die.
Everyday I get behind the wheel, there's a chance I could either die myself or I could cause someone else to die.
Everytime I hire a Power tool, I could either injure myself, others or worse.

Your choice, your risk. What about every time you send your kids to school in the rootin tootin US of A?

The whole discussion just beggars belief.

PS - I lied about the number of shootings in the USA this year. I don't know the number and frankly if they can't be arsed trying to fix the problem then I don't care, they will just keep happening. Unlike in the UK or NZ. Or in Germany, Canada or Norway. For an English bloke you seem to be very apologetic for the seppos and their outdated laws.

[sugilite:Me]

Ohio set to allow teachers to carry guns with reduced training requirements

https://www.foxnews.com/us/ohio-teac...-guns-training

Sooooooo, more guns and less training. What could possibly go wrong.

[Kickaha]

Ohio set to allow teachers to carry guns with reduced training requirements

https://www.foxnews.com/us/ohio-teac...-guns-training

Sooooooo, more guns and less training. What could possibly go wrong.

That's retarded but what you'd expect for over there, someone in that position should be trained to a very high standard and have to have ongoing training

I do wonder how long it will be before the first "teacher shoots up school" news item

[F5 Dave]

Car backfires and Mrs Cromley takes out 3 hall monitors and the janitor.


Freedumb!

[TheDemonLord]

A few pages ago you quoted four UK mass shootings which covered a 34 year period. Is it just a simple coincidence that there have been 34 mass shootings in the US so far this year? You seem like an intelligent chap, but on this topic you just appear argumentative for the sake of being argumentative.

Okay, ready for the point:

There are other countries, which have statistically rare events (Mass shootings), enact 'tough' new legislation, and the statistically rare event still happens rarely. Banning the Guns did not stop the problem.

So, why does it keep happening in America? It must be the Guns, right? But there are many other westernized countries, with long histories of Civillian Marksmanship and high rates of Gun Ownership, including places like Switzerland that allows you to buy your Assault Rifle (actual Assault Rifle, aka a Full Auto) from the Government after you complete your national service.

Therefore, it is neither the lack of legislation nor the prescence of 'Assault Rifles' that is the Causal link. There are other issues at play, other factors which must be present in the US to a higher degree than they are present in these other places.

Perhaps if we bothered to look at those factors, we might have a better outcome - but that would be difficult and wouldn't concentrate power disproportionately to the Government, so we can't do that.

Any same person must realise that the constitution needs changing if that is what is behind all this needless killing. Jeez, I am pretty sure I cant go back to England and shoot someone in a duel and expect legislation from 1723 to save me from prison. Times change, legislation needs to change as well.

I remember reading in NZ history when certain people said the Treaty was outdated... If it's current law and hasn't been repealed... or amended then it stands.

Your choice, your risk. What about every time you send your kids to school in the rootin tootin US of A?

The whole discussion just beggars belief.

It's no different than every time I strap my kids into my Car. In fact, it's statistically significantly more likely they will die of a Car Crash than of a Mass Shooter, by several orders of magnitude.

PS - I lied about the number of shootings in the USA this year. I don't know the number and frankly if they can't be arsed trying to fix the problem then I don't care, they will just keep happening. Unlike in the UK or NZ. Or in Germany, Canada or Norway. For an English bloke you seem to be very apologetic for the seppos and their outdated laws.

That outdated law was what stopped certain states instituting harsh Covid policies for which the world is now paying the price.

[TheDemonLord]

Ohio set to allow teachers to carry guns with reduced training requirements

https://www.foxnews.com/us/ohio-teac...-guns-training

Sooooooo, more guns and less training. What could possibly go wrong.

Reduced Training?

Are ya'll ready?

Not a fan of that.

[pritch]

PS - I lied about the number of shootings in the USA this year. I don't know the number and frankly if they can't be arsed trying to fix the problem then I don't care, they will just keep happening. Unlike in the UK or NZ. Or in Germany, Canada or Norway. For an English bloke you seem to be very apologetic for the seppos and their outdated laws.

I wondered about that. It was probably more like 34 mass shootings in May.

[pete376403]

Okay, ready for the point:


It's no different than every time I strap my kids into my Car. In fact, it's statistically significantly more likely they will die of a Car Crash than of a Mass Shooter, by several orders of magnitude.

"Strap your kids into the car" - you take the steps that you have control over to keep your kids safe(r). And you are agreeing that banning MSSA type firearms directly improves your kids chances of not being killed by a mass shooter. Glad we can agree on something.

[TheDemonLord]

"Strap your kids into the car" - you take the steps that you have control over to keep your kids safe(r).

Yes.

And you are agreeing that banning MSSA type firearms directly improves your kids chances of not being killed by a mass shooter. Glad we can agree on something.

No.

Ready for the difference?

External action vs Internal Action.

Let's rephrase your statement to really highlight the difference:

And you are agreeing that banning cars directly improves your kids chances of not being killed in a car accident. Glad we can agree on something.

That's the difference - I accept that allowing other people to have freedom will have a risk to Me and My Family, just as me maintaining my freedom is the potentially a risk to them and theirs.

That is what you are trying to argue - and whatever justification you use 'Cars are more useful than guns, guns only have one person' is just post-hoc justification.

Strip away all the layers and there is one truth:

Allowing other people freedom means that you are allowing a degree of risk.

[sugilite:Me]

Ban those friggin doors

[pritch]

We can never know what the enactors had in mind when the 2nd Amendment was added to the constitution, but I'm reasonably sure they didn't mean the likes of these idiots when they wrote "well regulated militia".

Problem is that people make their own minds up however unlikely. I suspect that what they had in mind was something not unlike the National Guard. There is nothing about government over reach in the constitution either. That's some random lunacy from the conspiracy theorists, and God knows, there's no shortage of those.