The firearm thread

[pritch]

I would like to see your data showing proof that this bloke is a communist revolutionary, and not say.... some gang banger looking to steal shit and cause trouble?

I fail to see the relevance of the description "communist revolutionary". It's not as if that's a legitimate excuse to shoot someone. Much less to travel across state lines with an illegal weapon to shoot someone, when he had no right to even be there armed.

What I've read of this trial so far has not been encouraging. The judge ruled before the start that the victims were not to be referred to as victims. After the trial started the judge went on some rambling biblical soliloquy. The defence lawyer made the case that a skateboard is a weapon capable of decapitating someone. Dunno, but if I was planning a beheading a skateboard wouldn't even be on the list of possible implements. I suspect we are going ot witness a legal circus.

[TheDemonLord]

I fail to see the relevance of the description "communist revolutionary". It's not as if that's a legitimate excuse to shoot someone. Much less to travel across state lines with an illegal weapon to shoot someone, when he had no right to even be there armed.

What I've read of this trial so far has not been encouraging. The judge ruled before the start that the victims were not to be referred to as victims. After the trial started the judge went on some rambling biblical soliloquy. The defence lawyer made the case that a skateboard is a weapon capable of decapitating someone. Dunno, but if I was planning a beheading a skateboard wouldn't even be on the list of possible implements. I suspect we are going ot witness a legal circus.

I'm going to be generous and assume that what you've read has been from the predominantly left-wing media.

What is a Legitimate excuse to shoot someone, is if they are charging towards you and leveling a Concealed Firearm (which he didn't have a permit to own) at you - Just like he said he did. In the snippet where he admits he was charging at Kyle and pulling his Weapon on him, The Prosecutor does some Picard level face-palming.

Whether it was 'legal' or not to cross state lines with the Firearm, the over-arching principle of what Kyle did is perfectly aligned with what the 2nd Amendment was written for - He is evidently a Well Trained Militia, and securing a Free state (by preventing revolutionary Communists from burning, rioting and looting...)

The ruling by the Judge isn't Legal circus but in fact long standing practice - here's an excellent breakdown of that:



(admittedly, I'm linking a lot of videos, and generally prefer to make my own arguments - but in this case - the explanation here as to why this is so is too good not to)

The only Legal circus is the fact it went to trial in the first place, I mean when your 'Star Witness' confirms textbook self-defence....

[pritch]

I
The ruling by the Judge isn't Legal circus but in fact long standing practice - here's an excellent breakdown of that:

.

I will watch that although I have a Zoom meeting about to kick off.

As to the self defence defence. He had zero right to be armed and in that place. Don't you think that is a factor. Never mind obviously you won't.

Do you have an explanation for the biblical rant too?

We'll see.

Gotta run

[TheDemonLord]

I will watch that although I have a Zoom meeting about to kick off.

As to the self defence defence. He had zero right to be armed and in that place. Don't you think that is a factor. Never mind obviously you won't.

I kinda covered that - As far as the 2nd Amendment is concerned, he had every right to be armed and in that place. And it's not just me that thinks that, Several Legal sources have been lambasting the Defence for not pointing at 2A and going 'Kyle did nothing wrong', since the Constitution is the highest legal authority in the country.

I will note that several non-American commentators have said things along the lines of 'We can discuss whether it's right for a 17 year old to go into a protest with a Rifle separately', so it's not like this isn't something where I haven't listened to people debating that point.

The facts of the case are, however, that by all accounts, Kyle is a good guy- offering Medical Aid, Protecting Property, putting out Arson, not rising to the Taunts of the Aggressors, attempted to turn himself in to the police after the shooting, co-operating with the Police in regards to giving them access to his Cell Phone.

The same cannot be said for the people that got shot, however.

Some have suggested that they are going to try and win without referencing the Constitution, because they might open a very large can of Worms and that would have large scale repercussions for various State Law.

Do you have an explanation for the biblical rant too?

Admitedly, I've not seen or heard the Biblical Rant - however in one of the Trial sections, the Judge did talk, at length, about some previous precedent he was involved in when he practiced law.

It was rather long and waffly, so I'll take you on your word that there was a Biblical Rant, and I'll even be generous and say that in my view, such a rant is a violation of the separation between Church and State.

Happy?

[pritch]

I kinda covered that -
The facts of the case are, however, that by all accounts, Kyle is a good guy- offering Medical Aid, Protecting Property, putting out Arson, not rising to the Taunts of the Aggressors, attempted to turn himself in to the police after the shooting, co-operating with the Police in regards to giving them access to his Cell Phone.

The same cannot be said for the people that got shot, however.

OK I watched the clip, all good. I believe Rittenhouse went there to shoot people, his mother should be charged as an accessory. It appears to be a fucked up family. If he went there as a medic he didn't need an AR15 or similar. I believe the medic story to have been created of his lawyer, just as was Rittenhouse's breaking down in court. A circus performance. Albeit a very low grade circus performance.

Most of the social media I'm seeing thinks the judge is biased. Some believe the prosecution thinks so too, and is trying to push the judge to do something that will provide grounds for a mistrial.

Meanwhile the circus continues.

[TheDemonLord]

I believe Rittenhouse went there to shoot people, his mother should be charged as an accessory. It appears to be a fucked up family.

Okay, so as Sugilite challenged me, I'll challenge you - show me the evidence for that claim. You might be referring to the off-hand remark he made about shoplifters, but I'd like to refer to the Judge's comments and rulings on that (hint, they are very very very scathing).

If he was there to shoot people, as you claim, why did he stop shooting?
Then we get to look at the list of the people he shot:

1 Pedo
1 Wife Beater
1 Revolutionary Commie with a Criminal history and an illegal concealed Weapon.

All of whom were (as per the video evidence) attacking or attempting to attack Kyle first.

Furthermore, you 'believe' that, because you've been lied to. I don't mean that glibly.

If he went there as a medic he didn't need an AR15 or similar. I believe the medic story to have been created of his lawyer, just as was Rittenhouse's breaking down in court. A circus performance. Albeit a very low grade circus performance.

When you are going into a Riot - being armed is entirely appropriate. Especially when you are worried about Revolutionary Commies trying to kill you...

But as for the Medic part: This is why I say you are being lied to - we have VIDEO footage of Kyle, on that night, Offering Medical assistance to people - both in an interview where he shows that he's got a Medkit:

https://www.insider.com/kenosha-gunm...terview-2020-8

I've seen another clip from that night of him asking 'Does anyone need Medical' - but that seems to have gone down the Memory Hole...

As for his Mother - I think you're referring to statements where she suggested he should go out of State - she suggested, he didn't and turned himself in - not exactly accessory after the Fact...

Most of the social media I'm seeing thinks the judge is biased.

That tells you something about the Social Media you are watching - The judge declined to order a Directed Verdict when the survivor confirmed Kyle didn't shoot him when his hands where up, but only shot him when he pulled his Gun and advanced on him.

The Judge also very nearly dismissed the case (possible via a Mistrial with Prejudice) after the Prosecutor essentially tried to use a Defendants right to Silence against him: There's a great clip of the Judge dismissing the Jury and absolutely unloading on the Prosecutor and you can hear the Judge stop himself:

"You are this close to a.....

well let's leave it at that"

I suspect the Judge has declined to order a verdict or declare a mistrial due to public interest in the case.

Some believe the prosecution thinks so too, and is trying to push the judge to do something that will provide grounds for a mistrial.

Funnily enough, I've seen that too, but I suspect the reasoning will be entirely different - the commentary I've seen is that the Prosecutor knows the whole case is quintessential Self-Defence but is being forced by political interests to proceed anyway - so is doing everything they can to get the aforementioned mistrial with prejudice.

That said, there's mumurs amongst some Lawyers that in particularly going after a constitutional right (5A) is such a big no-no, that he might be hauled before the Bar association for it.

Meanwhile the circus continues.

The only Circus around this is from the Prosecutors antics and the lying about this case from certain left-wing media outlets.

[sugilite:Me]

I laugh out loud when TDL refers to Rittenhouses "off-hand" remark he made about shoplifters (as in his desire to shoot them) when it suits his argument. Had Rittenhouse been a marxist commie dissident and shot some right wing blokes, then that statement all of a sudden would be provided by TDL as dead cert proof Rittenhouse was guilty As this case involves two of TDL's prominent triggers - commies n guns with a large helping of right vs left for desert, so TDL's posts in this case will always be severely biased.

I acknowledge this is a very complicated case. For me one thing is fairly simple. Rittenhouse went looking for trouble and found it - jail time of some description is fitting. Had he not gone looking for trouble, those deaths would not of occurred. It for sure was self defense, but he simply should not have been there with a AR15 in his hands in the first place. Decisions have consequences, Rittenhouse should suffer those.

[pritch]

Ignore that the defence claim that Rittenhouse is attending university to study for a nursing degree. That's a lie. The university have explained thst his very recent "enrolment" is not connected to any degree course. His claim that he travelled to give medical assistance if required is not credible. He has neither experience nor qualificatons for that. He travelled interstate with an illegal firearm to administer first aid? You have to be a special kind of deluded to believe that. OK, we do have that.

Better to look at it this way. A mass shooting was in progress. The proverbial "good guy with a gun" tried to stop it but was killed. A good guy with a skateboard also tried to stop it. (OK some good guys are better than others, but that's irrelevant here.) Rittenhouse is an evil little shit but he's supported by the fascists because he shot lefties.

The US legal profession were saying that people shouldn't judge the trial. It might not look good but we shouldn't judge. After a day or two to watch that's changing, people in the legal profession are openly saying the judge is problematic.

It's funny, I've seen the clips TDL is referring to but see them completely differently. The trial is descending into farce. The judge might as well invite Rittenhouse home for dinner. If he hasn't already.

Don't judge US judges by our standards. Some judges in the US are elected not appointed. In some states it is not even necessary that they have a law degree, they just need to have graduated high school. I'd be interested to see Judge Schroeder's background. I wouldn't want him judging a cat show.

Update: Shroeder is qualified and appointed but perhaps also somewhat eccentric. Having everybody in the court, including the jury, applaud a defence witness is problematic. The reason is irrelevant, the fact is he created a favourable impression of a witness prior to the witness giving evidence.

[TheDemonLord]

I laugh out loud when TDL refers to Rittenhouses "off-hand" remark he made about shoplifters (as in his desire to shoot them) when it suits his argument.

As per the Judge: Those two things are totally unrelated:

"There's a difference between saying what you might do IF you had a weapon on you to someone, vs what you actually did when you were armed and being attacked"

He didn't allow the argument, because it's BS.

Had Rittenhouse been a marxist commie dissident and shot some right wing blokes, then that statement all of a sudden would be provided by TDL as dead cert proof Rittenhouse was guilty

Take a moment to think why the Judge didn't allow that for Kyle, but did allow it for the Commie?

Why?

Because a Revolutionary Communist, doing revolutionary communist things IS relevant.

As this case involves two of TDL's prominent triggers - commies n guns with a large helping of right vs left for desert, so TDL's posts in this case will always be severely biased.

I'll come back to this statement in a moment...

It for sure was self defense

Exactly, case closed, Kyle Acquitted.

Before you say I've taken this out of context, let me explain why I've done so:

This is, as you say 'For sure Self Defense' - From there, then, where is the Bias (I said I'd come back to it) - Person A attacks Person B, Person A gets shot by Person B, There is no Bias on that judgement.

That you say that there IS bias shows how far to the left your Overton Window has shifted. Now, I'll accept a certain amount of glee that the people who were rioting and looting (and wanting to overthrow everything about the western capitalist society...) got their comeuppance, and the fact that of the 3 people shot, not a single one of them passes for a remotely decent human being, with 2 of them being absolute monsters.

Do I have Bias that a Pedo and a Wife Beater are Dead? Perhaps...

But the real question you need to ask is this: Would you prefer that a Pedo and a Wife Beater were alive? And if so, Why? It's not either of them were facing lengthy jail terms to pay for their crimes...

I acknowledge this is a very complicated case.

In the context of Self Defence, it really isn't.

For me one thing is fairly simple. Rittenhouse went looking for trouble and found it

Okay, let's break down the Video clips we have of Kyle from that night:

1: Cleaning Graffitti - is that looking for Trouble? Nope.
2: Putting out Arson Fires - is that looking for Trouble? Nope.
3: Saying he's here to provide Medical assistance (don't worry Pritch, I'll get to you...), and showing the Reporter his First Aid Kit - Is that looking for Trouble? Nope.
4: Asking people in the Street if they need Medical Assistance - Is that looking for Trouble? Nope.
5: When someone made death threats against him, responding with 'Love you too, Man' - Is that looking for Trouble? Nope.
6: Trying to retreat each time he was attacked - Is that looking for Trouble? Nope.
7: Trying to turn himself into the Police after he shot someone on that night - Is that looking for Trouble? Nope.

So Let me ask this, Based on the video evidence of the night, with no editing, commentary or other manipulation techniques - Pray Tell, How do you come to the conclusion he was looking for Trouble?

EVERY action that we have documented seems to show he was trying to STOP trouble.

- jail time of some description is fitting. Had he not gone looking for trouble, those deaths would not of occurred.

Had the rioters not STARTED the trouble, those deaths would not of occurred.
Had the rioters not ATTACKED Kyle, those deaths would not of occurred.
Had the Protestors been Peaceful and respectful of private property, those deaths would not of occurred.
Had the Protestors obeyed the Curfew, Those deaths would not of occurred.

Are you wanting to jail every single person involved in the riots? I mean I could support you on that if you insisted Kyle did some time to, that would be fair....

but he simply should not have been there with a AR15 in his hands in the first place.

And I fundamentally disagree.

What Kyle was doing was in the long tradition of the 2nd Amendment. Whether it's Rooftop Koreans, Assisting against the Bell Tower Sniper, Mr and Mrs Chadbro - When people start rioting and looting, you have every right to grab your Rifle, Stand in front of your business, or you employers business and present an Armed threat.

I must also remind you of that famous line from Rambo:

'They drew First Blood, Sir, Not me"

They started EVERY instance, as per the above.

Decisions have consequences, Rittenhouse should suffer those.

Indeed, a Medal, Movie and street named in his honor would be appropriate. 20-30 years ago, that's what would have happened.

[TheDemonLord]

Ignore that the defence claim that Rittenhouse is attending university to study for a nursing degree. That's a lie. The university have explained thst his very recent "enrolment" is not connected to any degree course.

Not an argument I've advanced, so no comment.

His claim that he travelled to give medical assistance if required is not credible.

You literally have an interview, with the man himself, before he shot anyone saying that this was his intent AND SHOWING HIS MEDKIT.
We also have video of him asking people if they need Medical.

How is that not Credible?

Now, I said I'd get to you - You are either going to have deny reality of the video evidence we have, or you are going to imply that somehow Kyle is some 5D chess Mastermind who planned out in meticulous detail every action and perfectly predicted every consequence for that evening.

He has neither experience nor qualificatons for that.

You never heard of Boy Scouts or similarly aged boys getting First Aid courses?

On the off-chance you haven't: Have a Read.

He travelled interstate with an illegal firearm to administer first aid? You have to be a special kind of deluded to believe that. OK, we do have that.

As per the Man himself "The Firearm is for Protection, here is my Medkit" - And it turns out, he needed it for Protection, multiple times

Better to look at it this way. A mass shooting was in progress.

No it wasn't. Not by the FBI definition and not by reality.

The proverbial "good guy with a gun" tried to stop it but was killed.

No, he survived and he wasn't a Good Guy, he was a Revolutionary Communist who was trying to kill Kyle - I mean as per his Testimony (paraphrased)

"He didn't shoot you when you had your hands up"
"No"
"He only shoot you when you Advanced on him and attempted to pull out your weapon"
"Yes"

A good guy with a skateboard also tried to stop it. (OK some good guys are better than others, but that's irrelevant here.)

Ah yes, the Wife Beater - Such a Good Guy.

Here's a Pro-Tip - if you are hitting someone, who was retreating, on the ground, with a weapon - You aren't the good Guy. He played a stupid game, he won the ultimate stupid prize (and good riddance).

Rittenhouse is an evil little shit but he's supported by the fascists because he shot lefties.

Your Bias is showing. I'll refer to the list I gave Sugilite - Cleaning Graffitti, Putting out fires, offering Medical Assistance, not rising to verbal threats and insults.

Oh, and no Criminal Record for Pedophilia or Domestic Abuse.

Seriously - This is the level to which you have been lied to: You are supporting someone who has done nothing wrong over Pedophiles and Wife Beaters.

The US legal profession were saying that people shouldn't judge the trial. It might not look good but we shouldn't judge. After a day or two to watch that's changing, people in the legal profession are openly saying the judge is problematic.

The only people that are saying that, are Activists. The fact the Judge hasn't issued a Directed Verdict or declared a Mistrial is proof of that.

It's funny, I've seen the clips TDL is referring to but see them completely differently. The trial is descending into farce. The judge might as well invite Rittenhouse home for dinner. If he hasn't already.

The judge is Neutral, and you see him as Biased. That shows how far your Biases have shifted - again, you've been lied to and so badly that you are supporting Pedos, Wife Beaters and Revolutionaries.

Don't judge US judges by our standards. Some judges in the US are elected not appointed. In some states it is not even necessary that they have a law degree, they just need to have graduated high school. I'd be interested to see Judge Schroeder's background. I wouldn't want him judging a cat show.

Clearly then you haven't watched the clips I posted, because if you had, you would have heard the Judge refer to Case precedent from when HE was a Lawyer....

At this moment - you have two very solid grounds for acquittal, that any Judge could do so and not be accussed of Bias. And he's come very close, but he's declined to do so, because he's clearly NOT Biased...

Update: Shroeder is qualified and appointed but perhaps also somewhat eccentric. Having everybody in the court, including the jury, applaud a defence witness is problematic. The reason is irrelevant, the fact is he created a favourable impression of a witness prior to the witness giving evidence.

It's almost like if you've done nothing wrong and don't lie, you don't look bad, who would have thought that...

[sugilite:Me]

TDL - i stand by me assertion that had Rittenhouse been a dastardly commie and done the same thing against right wingers, you would be writing passionate rebuttals against the very points you are attempting to make here. Your right wing eye patch prevents you from posting anything remotely balanced when it comes to Rittenhouse, as your absurd give the guy a medal statement prooves.

[TheDemonLord]

TDL - i stand by me assertion that had Rittenhouse been a dastardly commie and done the same thing against right wingers, you would be writing passionate rebuttals against the very points you are attempting to make here.

Okay, I'll grant you part of that for free and I'll grant you the other part on a condition:

Show me a situation that is close enough to Kyle's situation but the Politics are reversed, in the last 5-10 years and I'll grant the second half of it.

That Right Wing/Conservative/National/Republicans were destroying local towns and businesses, settings fires and protesting and a bunch of well-armed Left Wing supports came to provide assistance, when one was repeatedly attacked and killed their attackers in self defence.

Now, before you raise January 6th - that was against the Government and the only person shot and killed was by Security (and I'm fairly certain I haven't shed many tears about their death, nor have I called for the metaphorical head of the Security person)

And before you raise Charlottesville - the Organizer (Richard Spencer) supports Joe Biden... So, very 'right wing'....

For the record, the part I'm granting you for free is my opposition to any group that wants to undermine the foundational principles of Free, Liberal democracy.

The only reason I focus on the Communists is that it's acceptable to walk around with a T-Shirt with Hammer and Sickle on it, spout Revolutionary nonsense or spout racial supremecist nonsense from a 'critical theory' lens and be embraced by the likes of Mainstream Media, University campuses, Social Media Companies, Mainstream politics etc. etc., whereas the same cannot be said in reverse.

Your right wing eye patch prevents you from posting anything remotely balanced when it comes to Rittenhouse, as your absurd give the guy a medal statement prooves.

Let me try a different tack:

Okay, take the Politics out of it, Kyle is still objectively a Hero.
Take the prior convictions (that Kyle couldn't have known about), Kyle is still objectively a Hero.
Take the good deeds he had been doing on the night (offering assistance, cleaning graffitti, putting out arson attempts), Kyle is still objectively acting in self defence.

It's only when you take away the fact that in all 3 instances, he was attacked first that you could describe the situation as dubious.

As I said to Pritch, The Media have lied so hard about this case that you are ending up trying to say of a convicted Domestic Abuser, that they are

"A good guy with a skateboard also tried to stop it."

That's how far the Bias has gone.

[pritch]

As per the Man himself "The Firearm is for Protection, here is my Medkit" - And it turns out, he needed it for Protection, multiple times

That right there is the crux of the thing. The medkit is a red herring. I believe he went there to shoot people and he did. If he was black he'd be dead already and we eouldn't even be having this discussion. And for the first time on KB we could actually be discussing CRT appropriately.

He seem to have had a strange upbringing,. I have no idea as to the veracity of the attachment but it's clear what it's meant to be.

We will not agree so...

[TheDemonLord]

That right there is the crux of the thing. The medkit is a red herring.

Right, so let's get this clear - you sincerely believe that a 17 year old, took a MedKit as a Prop, got himself interviewed, caught on camera multiple times doing good deeds, somehow instigated himself to be attacked, bearing in mind we have the altercations on Camera and at no point is Kyle the Aggressor, you believe that all of this was done as some form of Mastermind evil plan to:

I believe he went there to shoot people and he did.

See, if he kept shooting at the Crowd - at any point in time, you might have a point.
If it had fired at anyone who was not actively attacking him, you might have a point.

But such things are lacking by their absence.

You believe that, because you've been sold a lie.

If he was black he'd be dead already and we eouldn't even be having this discussion. And for the first time on KB we could actually be discussing CRT appropriately.

Why are you bringing Race into this? There isn't a Racial element to this, At. All.

As for CRT - Have you read the Academic Papers where they confirm it's basically one big scam to try and sneak Marxism in the backdoor? Happy to provide you with the link where Kimberly Crenshaw refers to the work of Antonio Gramsci and of Marx himself.

Hell, I'll even be generous - you set the standard of proof that you will accept to say that CRT is one big Marxist lie, I'm pretty certain I can meet.

He seem to have had a strange upbringing,. I have no idea as to the veracity of the attachment but it's clear what it's meant to be.

Indeed it is clear what it's meant to be:

Poisoning the Well

We will not agree so...

But that is half the Fun.

[sugilite:Me]

TDL, Yes Charlottesville. Just because the organizer supported Biden, does not absolve all the other right wing nut jobs there. That is a prime example of your eye patch at work, Oh the organizer was a Biden supporter, absolving all others of being right wing. Give me a fuckin break. There is no depth to which you will not stoop to absolve the right. I'll give you this - in your desire to lean right and "win the argument", you do not even realize you are doing it. (my theory)

Your eye patch also gives you a very fuzzy perception of law and order. Fight like a fucker when it is left doing shit, but excuses galore when the right do it, hell you pretty much absolve the right for the last 5 to 10 years of doing anything much bad in your last laughable post.

As mentioned many times before to you, I advocate throwing ANY rioters, arsonists in jail, be they left or right. I simply don't care on that front. Unlike yourself. If you were a motorcycle tyre, the right side would be absolutely melted and thrashed all the way to the edge - to the point Rossi would be proud, the left hand side would still be showroom shiny and have the little tags left over from the manufacturing process.

The whole left/right thing is being stoked to the max by each parties media, all to sell more advertising space. Right now the likelihood of civil war is high within 3 to 6 years. Then Russia and China will mop up and our kids future will look very bleak indeed.
But by all means, keep doing the little jig your puppet masters are covertly taking great delight in triggering you to perform.