The firearm thread

**wbks** · 22nd August 2009, 10:13

Originally Posted by sAsLEX

Depends on the era they come from, how they are trained et al. It is a rather complex equation really.

But the Americans(and other forces as well) have spent a lot of time and money researching how to remove moral conscience as a stop to the squeezing of that index finger.

So let me guess, you would expect the all mighty British Special Air Service to be more morally conscious and better trained etc? Better trained... Sure. Morally conscious? I'm not so sure dressing like Iraqi civilians and driving around in a car shooting at civilians and police is a very moral thing to do. *Yes that is a real example

**Mr Merde** · 22nd August 2009, 11:56

Originally Posted by wbks

.......I'm not so sure dressing like Iraqi civilians and driving around in a car shooting at civilians and police is a very moral thing to do. *Yes that is a real example

Where does this come from?

First I've heard of activities like this from those troops mentioned.

Unless it comes from a book by Chris Ryan or Andy McNab. Tossers both who dont dare show their faces in Hereford.

As to the USA having better troops and better training, recent figures show that for every kill made in the current conflicts there have been about 500,000 rounds expended. I wouldnt exactly, in light of these figures say that the training has improved.

Going into a conflict situation is not easy. Fears, nerves, worries, adrenilin and everythiong else works against you.

I've seen first timers who have been through their first firefight without actually firing a shot. They have been through all the actions, taking aim, pulling the trigger, counting rounds, changing mags etc, all with the safety on. Not one shot fired.

When there are 20 of you opening up and there is incomming fire, you hope that training will kick in and you dont mess up too badly. Harder still is to lie in wait and cold bloodedly take aim at someone who has no idea you are there, and fire that one killing shot off. Here you rely on training and your own belief system. Thats why snipers are a very selective unit and a very lonely group of men.

When you are in a group of soldiers firing off at anything and everything you can always kid yourself that every shot you fired either got a real baddie or missed. When on your own you know that you have taken a life and it is you who will have to live with that no matter if it was an act that made a great difference or not in the scheme of things.

A member of the airforce or the navy are insulated from this mostly. They fight at a distance in the majority of circumstances and the enemy is very impersonal. A foot soldier gets up close and dirty. We are all scared.

**wbks** · 22nd August 2009, 14:50

No, it's a real example, not out of a book. I'll try to find it, but remember, just because they are our "allies", doesn't mean they don't do some fucked up shit. Somehow I think you all would have believed me, no questions asked, if I said it was the russian Speznatz(sp?) in another area of the world, or some other "dodgy" nation. Yes? Those statistics don't cover suppresive fire, do they? I'm no veteran soldier (you sound like you might be?), but from what I know, a lot of that 500, 000 goes to keeping the enemy off you, not necessarily into actually killing the enemy? Snipers only fire when they are guaranteed a kill (as you said), not when they want to cover themselves while they are in danger when they don't need to kill, just keep people off your back. I know if I was getting shot at with a .50 cal machine gun I'd probably stop shooting at them and duck for cover for a while, anyway

"Two British commandos, members of the secretive SAS were arrested by Iraqi police yesterday in the southern Iraqi city of Basra. The two men, dressed in Arab garb and driving an unmarked car, drew the attention of police. As the car was approached, shots were fired. Conflicting reports make the timeline of the exchange of fire unclear, and there are also discrepancies concerning casualties, some saying one policeman was wounded and/or killed, others claiming two police dead, while still others claim none were killed. But what is clear: the two soldiers were taken into custody and questioned by an Iraqi judge. "-pej.org "Basra governor Mohammed al-Waili said the men - possibly working undercover - were arrested for allegedly shooting dead a policeman and wounding another."-http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4264614.stm I've seen it also talked about on other clips. Basically, local accounts (of being shot at) are discounted as biased, and the only accepted account of events is that a police man was shot dead. Maybe the public just thought that they were being shot at (caught in crossfire) or maybe it happened, no one will know

**hospitalfood** · 22nd August 2009, 15:07

Originally Posted by Mr Merde

When there are 20 of you opening up and there is incomming fire, you hope that training will kick in and you dont mess up too badly. Harder still is to lie in wait and cold bloodedly take aim at someone who has no idea you are there, and fire that one killing shot off. Here you rely on training and your own belief system. Thats why snipers are a very selective unit and a very lonely group of men.

you could argue that people just ain't no good........we are destroying our own environment at a fair clip, we overpopulate the planet.
Greed abounds etc.

Every kill is a good kill if you look at it in an objective manner.

**wbks** · 22nd August 2009, 15:14

Originally Posted by hospitalfood

you could argue that people just ain't no good........we are destroying our own environment at a fair clip, we overpopulate the planet.
Greed abounds etc.

Every kill is a good kill if you look at it in an objective manner.

The primary reason for (almost) every conflict since (and even in, for the yanks) world war two has been for money or influence, hidden under the guise of "liberation" or "freedom and democracy for the people of _______". So yes, greed.

**-easy--rider-** · 22nd August 2009, 21:06

co2. semi auto. others dont matter

**scumdog** · 22nd August 2009, 21:41

Originally Posted by hospitalfood

you could argue that people just ain't no good........, we overpopulate the planet.
.

THAT in a nut-shell sums up the cause of almost all the worlds problems.

**hospitalfood** · 22nd August 2009, 22:39

yep i think so. and if i dont get some more work soon i may have to sell one of my semi-automatic solutions............or perhaps one of my bolt action solutions

**sAsLEX** · 23rd August 2009, 09:46

Originally Posted by wbks

So let me guess, you would expect the all mighty British Special Air Service to be more morally conscious and better trained etc? Better trained... Sure. Morally conscious? I'm not so sure dressing like Iraqi civilians and driving around in a car shooting at civilians and police is a very moral thing to do. *Yes that is a real example

Not at all.

The documentary I watched noting the very low percentage of draftees actually putting effective rounds down range was US. It was covering the development of training in the US from the early 1900s to today.

**ManDownUnder** · 23rd August 2009, 13:04

Not allowed to just chuck it in the post - so..l. what options do I have?

**Indiana_Jones** · 23rd August 2009, 13:06

Originally Posted by ManDownUnder

Not allowed to just chuck it in the post - so..l. what options do I have?

I think you can courier it? no doubt at some extra cost.

Powder on the other hand is a bitch to mail/courier I hear.

Best you ask Chris

-Indy

**jono035** · 23rd August 2009, 16:25

Originally Posted by ManDownUnder

Not allowed to just chuck it in the post - so..l. what options do I have?

I think couriers can carry packages of ammo up to 5kgs but I don't know what the requirements for them to do so are.

http://www.ltsa.govt.nz/rules/danger...s-2005.html#23

Basically says packages of ammo 5kg or less can be transported provided they are well packaged (bubble wrap and cardboard box I guess) and marked with the UN number, shipping name, clases and division.

Would probably be up to the courier though. NZ couriers and courierpost both have notes on their website about not transporting dangerous goods without written authorization... I'd give em a call and find out what the story is, it may just be a case of signing a special form and sticking the correct sticker on.