The firearm thread

[ManDownUnder]

The reply to my concern about TM data matching or somehow getting the list of Firearms license details came tonight
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Dear MDU,

Thanks for contacting us.

I have looked into this for you and can confirm that as previously advised, if you fax us a photocopy of your firearms licence we will re-enable this ability. Please fax this to us on 04 974 4820 and include your username on the fax. Alternatively, you can email us a copy of your firearms licence as an attachment to tmcs@trademe.co.nz.

The license information is held in accordance with our Privacy Policy, our Terms and Conditions and the Privacy Act. Therefore we do not sell or rent your information, and it is only disclosed in the circumstances outlined in our Policy and provided for in the Privacy Act.

If you have further questions regarding this issue please reply and we will answer your email as soon as possible.

Regards,
===

so the reply, quite predictably, repeated the question I actually wanted the answer to.
===
Thank you for your response however my main concern remains unanswered. Quite specifically my question is this. How could you possibly know if the Firearms License Number submitted is mine or not?

Or put another way - how do you validate Firearms license numbers?

[Indiana_Jones]

If I remember right, I watched a doco on sky not too long ago about the development of guns from portable cannons to Thomsons, and apparently in Africa the gun you're polishing sometimes detonated shells before chambering and killed everyone in the vicinity...
Of course I'm the gun noob, so you would probably know about it if it were true, but the rifle on the teevee set and the martini-infield matches the description perfectly. Of course, it's probably a rumor

You're talking about one of these right?

And thanks for the update MDU.

-Indy

[Swoop]

Called for a boycott of Trade me.

I for one will be doing so.

I for one, have been doing so since they gave my details away.
Also, charging a fee to have a reserve price higher than the start price is really a bit on the nose.

Good thing it doesn't have a free-standing grip, otherwise it'd be deadly...

I'd be more concerned if there was a bayonet lug...

[Mr Merde]

My reply from Trade Me

+++++

Dear Chris,

Thanks for contacting us.

Buyers of ammunition are now required to be authenticated and must enter a valid firearms licence number when they bid on ammunition.

Asking a question on a shotgun, rifle or ammunition auction now requires a valid firearms licence number to be entered.

We have implemented these changes to ensure that firearms and ammunition sales comply with current firearm laws.

The license information is held in accordance with our Privacy Policy, our Terms and Conditions and the Privacy Act. Therefore we do not sell or rent your information, and it is only disclosed in the circumstances outlined in our Policy and provided for in the Privacy Act.

If you have further questions regarding this issue please reply and we will answer your email as soon as possible.

Regards,

Mel

Trade Me Support
http://www.trademe.co.nz


+++

I replied with the following

Mel,

Thank you very much for your prompt reply. I know that to purchase live
ammunition that a Firearms licence is needed.

My question to you is why does buying ammunition components now require a
licence input on your site?

There is no requirement in NZ law to provide a licence when purchasing
these components from any other source, why so non your site?

There is no legal requirement to provide a licence number when asking a
question regarding ammunition in any gunshop[ in NZ, why so on your site?

How do you verufy that a licence is correct? Recently a friend input his
number incorrectly and you locked his account, how did you know it was
incorrect?

Do you have access to the police database to verify these numbers?

I look forward to your answers to these questions and until I get a
satisfactory and reasonable answer I will be urging all my friends and
associates, who shoot, to refrain from using your site due to secutity
issues.

Thanks

Chris

+++++

I wonder what their reply is going to be to this one.

[jono035]

I wonder what their reply is going to be to this one.

There are quite a few of us waiting on the answer to that one with bated breath...

[Swoop]

Asking a question on a shotgun, rifle or ammunition auction now requires a valid firearms licence number to be entered.

I know what would be said if I walked into a gunshop, to chat about a firearm, and I was told to show a licence to do so...

[Wolf]

I know what would be said if I walked into a gunshop, to chat about a firearm, and I was told to show a licence to do so...

sorry, guys, but before we can continue talking about firearms in this thread we've all got to submit our licence numbers to some random dude who will store them somewhere...

[Mr Merde]

sorry, guys, but before we can continue talking about firearms in this thread we've all got to submit our licence numbers to some random dude who will store them somewhere...

Random ?

Isnt he a KB member already?

[The Pastor]

can anyone cut/paste what the important nsa thing was? i cant see it

[Mr Merde]

can anyone cut/paste what the important nsa thing was? i cant see it

Basically a call to boycott Trade Me as they are datamining at the best or breaking privacy regs at worst

[The Pastor]

Basically a call to boycott Trade Me as they are datamining at the best or breaking privacy regs at worst

its a bit hard to boycott a monopoly tho...

[ManDownUnder]

There are quite a few of us waiting on the answer to that one with bated breath...

Dear MDU,

Thanks for contacting us.

I am sorry but we are unable to disclose that information to you, we have processes in place to ensure the information received is valid but we are not able to release the details of how we do this.

I apologise that I cannot be of further assistance in this instance.

If you have further questions regarding this issue please reply and we will answer your email as soon as possible.

Regards,

Mel

===
My reply , copying the Office of The Privacy Commissioner

Thank you Mel,

I understand the security required around the use and issue of firearms licenses, and to that I end I most certainly share your concerns and appreciate any efforts Trademe can put in place to safeguard that information.
However in this instance my concern is that the process is indeed a valid one and in no way compromises my privacy through the most obvious mechanism of data matching. I am also very very concerned at Trademe unnecessarily collecting information which confirms the likely presence of firearms at any given address, and the additional possibility of knowing what types of firearms are to be found at any given address.

Understandably your response has done nothing to assuage my concerns and I'd like to involve the Office of the Privacy Commissioner to confirm the data being collected and held by Trademe isn't being matched against data from a highly secure database held only (one would assume) by the Police. Alternately the license numbers may be somehow validated using an algorithm, which I also find concerning as this very tool could be used to generate "Authentic" Firearms licensee which should never be done outside state control.

I would also like to take this opportunity to point out the collection of this data by Trademe is not required as the onus is on the seller of restricted items to verify the buyer is allowed by law to purchase them. The collection of Firearms license numbers for the mere act of asking a question about anything firearm, shotgun or ammunition related simply aggravates the situation as it simply accelerates the rate at which this information is collected, for no legitimate purpose - which again raises questions on the rationale for doing so.

While I respectfully do not expect to be privy to what appears to be confidential data, or confidential mechanisms that I would certainly not want to fall into the wrong hands, I also see a strong need to prevent the possibility of a leak of data as has happened in the past (albeit I understand not Trademe's fault). However if that data held any of the above information relating to the types and locations of firearms throughout New Zealand it would have catastrophic consequences.

As a minor administrative point, assuming all the above is legitimate, you would also need to have a duly notarized copy of any firearms license faxes or emails as simply faxing or scanning one is not sufficient to ensure the authenticity of a license. The Arms Act requires all licenses to be either sited in person or notarized by the Police. As previously mentioned however, Trademe has no requirement on it to collect or validate that information as you are neither buyer nor seller in the transaction.
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To the Office of the Privacy Commissioner

I'd appreciate if you could please work with Trademe in confirming their need to collect, store and validate Firearms License numbers in respect of their online auction business.

My concern is threefold.

1) Trademe is able to validate Firearms license numbers which should only be accessible to the appropriate law enforcement authorities. Related to that is what data they are indeed collecting and storing as the type of firearms license is a strong indicator of the presence of types of firearms. This information is very easily matched to verified addresses (per the "Address verified" mechanism Trademe encourage customers to use) to give a profile of a Trademe user, their location, the types of firearms likely to be present, the activities they engage in (reloading for example which would confirm the presence of high explosives) and anyone with two clues can create a profile to indicate what times of day the customer is online (and by virtue of that a good time to steal things if needed)

2) Another concern is Trademe's requirement for the Firearms license number when it is not needed. There's no need to have a firearms license number submitted when

i) A question is asked on anything rifle, shotgun or ammunition related
ii) A bid is placed on any non restricted item such as projectiles, primers, propellant, brass cases, reloading presses etc While I understand this may be an administrative error on Trademe's part done with what I expect to be the best of intentions - it exacerbates the situation, and grossly accelerates the collection of this data for no legal purpose

3) Storage and safeguarding of this highly confidential As outline in 1 above. Assuming this information collection has a legitimate purpose, the access to it must be restricted to the greatest practicable extent
Regards
MDU

[Mr Merde]

its a bit hard to boycott a monopoly tho...

www.gunstuff.co.nz

the more that start using it the more goods will appear.

[Drunken Monkey]

www.gunstuff.co.nz

the more that start using it the more goods will appear.

Sweet. Now if only they'll sell me that Sig-P226 without a B class...

[Mr Merde]

Sweet. Now if only they'll sell me that Sig-P226 without a B class...

I congratulate you on a fine choice of firearm but in all honesty I really do hope that they are responsible enough to tell you to obtain a B cat or go away