The firearm thread

[Wolf]

You gotta have a house you can mortgage? Well, I'm fucked, then. Or at least I will be if I ever defended myself with a weapon: repeatedly, in the prison showers...

BTW, you really ought to read Massad Ayoob's In Gravest Extreme. Most fascinating book. It's pitched to USAians but a lot of the principles apply here in spades.

[Indiana_Jones]

....better to be judged by twelve than to be carried by six

-Indy

[Drunken Monkey]

Certainly, the first thing to do after shooting an intruder would be fire a couple of warning shots into the roof, the second would be call the best lawyer that you can possibly afford, up to and including mortgaging your house. The fact that we've gotten to the point where it is another way you're more likely to be able to keep your family safe if you're rich is particularly amusing.

Better than that, keep an unregistered, unserialised .22 Sterling or equally cheap shooter locked away just for this situation. Shoot the bastard with your own favourite, then dig out the Stirling, scrub it for prints, put it in his hands and fire at the wall near where you shot him from. Then you've got the old "He shot at me first!" defense...

[Wolf]

....better to be judged by twelve than to be carried by six

-Indy

Methinks you're presupposing a favourable judgement, there. If they judge you guilty, you may have been better off dead.

Personally, I don't like either option. Anyone know of any Army-surplus bunkers going for low rent near shops, primary school and a bus stop in the Hamilton area?

[Wolf]

Better than that, keep an unregistered, unserialised .22 Sterling or equally cheap shooter locked away just for this situation. Shoot the bastard with your own favourite, then dig out the Stirling, scrub it for prints, put it in his hands and fire at the wall near where you shot him from. Then you've got the old "He shot at me first!" defense...

Until the neighbours are questioned and say they heard a Earth-shattering "BOOM" followed by a loud crack two minutes later and the cops start thinking of the differences between the .300 Winchester Magnum hole in the victim's chest and the dinky little .22lr hole in the wall...

You did aim for the chest, I take it...

[jono035]

That's why the warning shot is a good idea, shoot him once, check that they're dead and then fire the warning shot. If you take 2 shots to drop them then fire 2 warning shots!

[Mr Merde]

It takes a shit load of nerve and training to accurately and quickly, shoot someone.

Some years ago a friend of mine was recounting the story of his first time in combat. It was Mozambique. He was in a patrol that stumbled onto an enemy patrol.

The fire fight started. My friend carefully took aim and fired. he counted his rounds and dropped the magazine when his count told him he was empty. At the end of the encounter. both sides backed off. My mate checked his rifle and he still had the safety on. He hadnt fired a shot. he thought he had. at his feet were a few full magazines.

Tim was shocked. needless to say the next time he actually fired his rifle.

What I am trying to say is that it takes a lot to take aim at a person and pull the trigger. knowing that you are going to cause a lot of damage or even death. most people freeze, even trained soldiers freeze.

Try sitting in a ditch, on top of a hill, staring down a scope at someone who doesnt even know you are there. Then pulling the trigger.

Most people have an ingrained sense of horror at the thought of actually killing another. It takes a lot to actually do it.


I preach so please forgive me.b

[Wolf]

Good call, Chris. And a great illustration. One of my ex workmates told me of a mate of his: in the heat of battle, working the bolt action on his rifle furiously - but omitting to pull the trigger in between... ejected the entire contents of the mag, unfired, onto the ground.

[Urano]

t that if you use a weapon you will be arrested, you will be prosecuted, the prosecution will do their best to convince the jury that you were acting unreasonably and/or maliciously and it will be up to the jury to decide whether or not your assumption was reasonable under the circumstances.

then is more similar to italy than to usa. this clarify me the initial point: you all have guns for fun or hunt. thank you...

Bear in mind that the sole function of a jury is to determine who has the better lawyer - so you'd better hope that your lawyer is more adept than the QC.

this is good

Certainly, the first thing to do after shooting an intruder would be fire a couple of warning shots into the roof

this is as well...

Better than that, keep an unregistered, unserialised .22 Sterling or equally cheap shooter locked away just for this situation

this is... EVIL!!!!
Devil's a child in comparison....

It takes a shit load of nerve and training to accurately and quickly, shoot someone.

it's waaay true, and from this point derives my idea on armed defense. i've been in the army (here was mandatory...), i know hot to use a gun. but a crminal is criminal, and will probably have less doubts in using it than me. i don't want to check who has less scruples...

let's go hunting opossums...

[Urano]

double post, sorry... (is not possible to erase a post??? we have vbull as well and it is.... )

[Swoop]

double post, sorry... (is not possible to erase a post??? we have vbull as well and it is.... )

Go into "edit post" then "Advanced" and there is the option to "Delete this post".

[Swoop]

March 22, 2010: A year ago, in response to user requests, the U.S. Army ordered upgrades for its sniper equipment, including 38.4 million rounds of .300 Winchester magnum ammunition for the newly modified M-24 sniper rifles. The new ammo costs about $1.30 per round. The army is also modifying rifle magazines to hold ten, rather than five, rounds. A new scope (25x instead of 10x) and a flash suppressor is being provided as well. Other changes are in the works. Snipers have been enormously successful in Iraq and Afghanistan, and when new gear is asked for, it is usually provided.
Snipers have been asking for a longer range weapon, but not one as bulky and heavy as the 30 pound .50 caliber (12.7mm) rifle (which is good to about 2,000 meters). Thus the army is modifying existing M24 rifles to fire the more powerful .300 Winchester Magnum ("Win Mag") round. It was felt that this gave the snipers all the additional range they needed, without requiring a much heavier rifle. SOCOM has been using this approach since the early 1990s.

The calls were loudest from snipers operating in Afghanistan, where U.S. Army and Marine Corps shooters wanted a sniper rifle that can consistently get kills out to 1,800 meters. The current 7.62mm round was good only to about 800 meters. The 300 Winchester magnum is a more powerful, but not much larger, round than the current 7.62mm one. By replacing the barrel and receiver of the $6,700 M24 sniper rifle, for about $4,000, you can fire the .300 Winchester Magnum round. This is longer (at 7.62 x 67mm) than the standard 7.62x51mm round, and is good out to 1,200 meters. An improved version of the round is expected to extend that range another 200 meters or so. The only downside is the greater recoil for the Win Mag, which requires snipers spend some time and effort adjusting to this.

There was another option, and that was to replace the barrel and receiver of the M24 sniper rifles to handle the .338 (8.6mm) Lapua Magnum round. Thus you still have a 17 pound sniper rifle, but with a round that can hit effectively out to about 1,600 meters. British snipers in Iraq, and especially Afghanistan, have found the Lapua Magnum round does the job at twice the range of the standard 7.62x51mm round. The 8.6mm round entered use in the early 1990s, and became increasingly popular with police and military snipers. Some NATO snipers have used this round in Afghanistan with much success, and have a decade of experience with these larger caliber rifles. Recognizing the popularity of the 8.6mm round, Barrett, the pioneer in 12.7mm sniper rifles, came out with a 15.5 pound version of its rifle, chambered for the 8.6mm. But the U.S. preferred the lighter .300 Winchester magnum solution.

This is not the first time the U.S. Army has quickly responded to sniper needs. Three years ago, in response to requests from snipers operating in urban areas of Iraq, the U.S. Army began issuing the M110 SASS (Semi-Automatic Sniper System). Urban snipers often have multiple targets, at relatively short ranges. They needed a semiautomatic rifle. Previously, many snipers have had success using tuned up M-14s (from the 1960s) as sniper rifles. While semi-automatic and rugged, the M-14 wasn't designed to be a sniper rifle. The M110 was a better semi-automatic sniper rifle, since it is inherently more reliable and accurate. As far back as World War II, it was known that there were many situations where a semi-automatic sniper rifle would come in handy. But it's taken over half a century to solve the reliability and accuracy problems.

The M110 is a based on the AR-10 rifle. The U.S. Navy has been buying a similar weapon, the SR25. This is also known as the Mk11 Sniper Rifle System (SRS). These new semi-automatic sniper rifles are 7.62mm weapons based on the designs of M-16 creator, Gene Stoner. The basis for the M-16 was the AR-15, and a 7.62mm version of that weapon was called the AR-10. About half the parts in the SR25 are interchangeable with those in the M-16. The Stoner sniper rifles achieved its high accuracy partly by using a 20 inch heavy floating barrel. The "floating" means that the barrel is attached only to the main body of the rifle to reduce resonance (which throws off accuracy.)

The M110 weighs 17.3 pounds in combat, and about 70 pounds with all components of the system. The M110 can use a ten or twenty round magazine. The 40.5 inch long rifle can have a six inch tube attached to the barrel, which reduces the noise and flash made when the rifle fires, and largely eliminates nearby dust rising into the air, which often gives away the snipers position.

The M110 will gradually replace many of the bolt-action M24s, while the remaining M24s will be converted to fire the .300 Winchester Magnum, for those snipers working somewhere, like Afghanistan, where more range is needed.



Interesting, but the M-14's were heavily used in Vietnam on sniper teams. Normally the spotter was armed with one of these in 7.62x51mm.

[ManDownUnder]

....better to be shot at by a twelve gauge than a six shooter"

-Indy

Ya reckon? You're probably right at anything more than 80m...

[scumdog]

Ya reckon? You're probably right at anything more than 80m...

But boy, if those OO buckshot or solid slugs DO hit you it'll smart!

[Mr Merde]

But boy, if those OO buckshot or solid slugs DO hit you it'll smart!

It would be safer to stand in front of the target and let Indiana open up with his Mosin. Havent seen him hit a target at anything more than 50 metres, yet.