The firearm thread

[jono035]

you reload 20 cal??

What is 20 cal? I assume you mean .223. Unless you're talking about 6mm in which case EVERYONE reloads it.

An ar15 isnt fussy.

If you had a nice rifle and you were comp to 1000 yds, maybe. Other than that, i'll stand by, fuck loading that.

I disagree.

An AR-15 will fire just about anything, but some of the cheaper crappier ammo can really foul one up. In that case it's time spent reloading to save time cleaning.

Also, as with any gun, you'll get much better results with hand-loaded ammo if you're really keen because you're tuning for things like condition of the threading, amount and stroke length of reciprocating mass and to avoid barrel resonances.

You can get close by carefully testing multiple types of ammo, but that's not likely to leave you picking the cheapest one. You can get the cheapest and just live with the results (probably what I'd do). Alternatively, you can get setup to reload and get the best of both worlds, while saving money to boot.

As per usual, a lot of assertions here without numbers behind them.

From a quick look on Reloaders it looks like you can get below $0.50 per round without too much trouble, that's buying things in the 100-1000 quantity. It does assume you've got a source of brass, but basically if it's cheaper than new ammo, you've always got a source of brass right there.

Best I could see is some remanufactured Belmont ammo at $0.88 each. I'm not sure I'd consider that a good candidate for reloading from, though. I've been having a mare sorting some loose-primer brass out from a batch of .45 given to me by a friend who shoots factory reloaded ammo. Everything else is $1 each or more, although not in any great quantities.

Anyone got any accurate and recent numbers for .223 bought in ~1k+ quantities?

[jono035]

You like guns - I get that.

Haven't watched the video you linked yet (just getting through Christmas backlog) but yeah, he does.

Also, that guy in the video probably just doesn't.

Both sides of the coin tend to be pretty blinkered when it comes to the issue. Sometimes it literally just comes down to some people like guns and will ignore anything said by someone who doesn't like guns. The converse is equally common, if not moreso.

edit: Amusingly, the guy in the video says that he just doesn't like guns, nice.

[jono035]

Just to go through the video on a point by point basis:

Biggest massacre: I don't really think he's phrasing this in a neutral fashion, but there are quite a few 'more deadly' ones listed on Wikipedia ('Rampage Killings'). These include use of firearms, melee weapons, arson, vehicles, bombings etc.

No mass killings since Port Arthur: This is true, but saying it's because of lower personal firearms ownership rates is disingenuous. Better training and response of the Police force is likely to have more to do with it, but both assertions are unsupported by any statistics, to my knowledge.

Only one reason to have a gun 'you like them': Well, that's possibly the 'best' one, but that's kind of misleading because you 'want' the gun for a myriad of reasons. Hunting, sport, protection are all reasons which are valid depending on where you live. Because he asserts otherwise doesn't make it true.

Australia said 'yeah alright' to gun restrictions: Yes, and my impression is that it hasn't done a whole lot to the ability of criminals to access firearms.

You're 80% more likely to use a gun on yourself: That's fine, that's a statistic about suicide, not firearms ownership. If removing access to firearms lowered the suicide rate, I'd consider this a valid point but I haven't seen anything that indicates this is so. It's a difficult stat to find, though, because suicide rates are very dependent on some of the same fundamentals for firearms ownership rates, such as economic background and country/location.

He gives an example where a gun wouldn't have helped: I agree that firearms for protection aren't necessarily in line with what the normal 'overwrought' power fantasy around them indicates, but statistically there are less home invasions, rapes and aggravated assaults in parts of the US that have higher firearm ownership rates (once corrected for gang activity, which is something better handled as a separate issue). One amusing anecdote (with very little information) is nothing more than a funny story, it isn't evidence of anything. There are plenty of people who attend home security conventions, these are often a large part of gun shows as well. One common product is a safe that allows quick opening in panic situations (basic 'chordal' keypads, fingerprint scanners etc.) while keeping firearms secure. One of these in a bedroom that wasn't on a ground floor would be 'ample' for a valid means of protection.

People aren't coming to murder your family, but the number of eldery people who get killed or seriously injured by disturbing an intruder is noticeably large. Elderly women being battered and raped doesn't make for good comedy, though.

Kids getting access to firearms: This is part of firearms education and security. That's the main reason for firearm security in this country, to prevent kids getting access to it and playing with them. Nobody things a metal rod in a wall in a garage is going to stop a thief. Also, see my comment about in-home gun security above.

No protection in the safe: See previous comments.

Window open - ever heard of security stays? I have them on any window I leave open on ground level.

Sandy Hook comments: Wouldn't happen if the teachers have guns, yet for some reason massacres happen a lot in areas where guns aren't allowed. There are quite a few stories (if you look for them, they don't make 'good news' as much) of possible massacres being prevented. Not necessarily by being shot, but by simply not being able to move freely and act freely because other people may be in a position to use equivalent force.

He pats himself a lot for making 'good points' and claimed that he was going to only use facts. So far it's mostly anecdotes etc. that I've seen, but he's amusing so we'll let it slide.

Constitution: Good points made, not really relevant, though. Of course the US could change it if there was enough support for it.

Slavery vs Guns: Really? I don't think you're going to find anything worthwhile in this as a real argument. Comparing the control and 'ownership' over another persons life with the access and use of a specific purpose tool is practically the definition of a strawman argument.

There's a few more minutes to go but my deck isn't going to waterblast itself so gotta get back to it.

[jasonu]

Too good not to share.

A couple of laughs in there but mostly a bunch of stories with no facts or figures to back them up. Plus I'm not really into comedians that use comedy to push a personal agenda.
Hardly 'too good not to share'.

[Katman]

A couple of laughs in there but mostly a bunch of stories with no facts or figures to back them up.

What was the percentage likelihood of using it on yourself?

[jono035]

What was the percentage likelihood of using it on yourself?

As compared to the number of people killed or seriously injured due to their own mistakes while using cars, industrial equipment, farming equipment, ladders etc. or (gasp) motorbikes? Probably pretty low. Then again, we don't really get videos of people dying after falling sideways off a ladder that wasn't secured and go 'we clearly need to ban ladders'.

That guy is ignoring quite a few of the fundamental aspects that get covered in basic holster draw and replace training.

[Akzle]

Australia said 'yeah alright' to gun restrictions: Yes, and my impression is that it hasn't done a whole lot to the ability of criminals to access firearms.

You're 80% more likely to use a gun on yourself: That's fine, that's a statistic about suicide, not firearms ownership. If removing access to firearms lowered the suicide rate,

He gives an example where a gun wouldn't have helped: I agree that firearms for protection aren't necessarily in line with what the normal 'overwrought' power fantasy around them indicates, but statistically there are less home invasions, rapes and aggravated assaults in parts of the US that have higher firearm ownership rates

Kids getting access to firearms: This is part of firearms education and security.

Sandy Hook comments: Wouldn't happen if the teachers have guns, yet for some reason massacres happen a lot in areas where guns aren't allowed.

didnt watch vid.
1- straya DID NOT WANT the arms bill, by about 8 to 2 vote. (in the MONTH preceeding the 'attack')
Suddenly, *gun crime*, media hype, 'halp me halp me save our soul' denizenry, and now, support, but only 7 to 3 at the vote. Enough, though: gun amnesty, disarmed population, and... No affect on any statistics relating to firearms.
Reeks of false flag to me.

2-guns offer an easy way out with a high % mortality rate compared to hangings, overdose, etc
agree that its suicide stat not gun stat. What needs attention is 'attempted' suicide (failing at failing, ffs) which doesnt often show up with firearms.

3- stats support (was us publication, ~'the truth about guns', re:destructive device atf ruling ~sep 11)
in areas it was MANDATED that the owner had to keep a firearm in home, crime decresed 80%. No shit.

4- education > security. Kids are good at picking trigger locks and stealing your safe keys while youre passed out drunk on a pile of hookers.
My kids were raised with guns (crossbows, knives, motorbikes, cars, sharp sticks, candles, matches, gas ovens etc)
ergo i trust them to be eminently more sensible than someone who tells me 'they dont like guns' but cant actually define nor differentiate firearms, airguns, good guys, bad guys, movies, real life, santa claus, bad parenting etc.

5- see 3.

[frogfeaturesFZR]

4- education > security. Kids are good at picking trigger locks and stealing your safe keys while youre passed out drunk on a pile of hookers.
My kids were raised with guns (crossbows, knives, motorbikes, cars, sharp sticks, candles, matches, gas ovens etc)
ergo i trust them to be eminently more sensible than someone who tells me 'they dont like guns' but cant actually define nor differentiate firearms, airguns, good guys, bad guys, movies, real life, santa claus, bad parenting etc.

5- see 3.

OMG, I am forced to agree with you !

[Drunken Monkey]

Speaking of reloading, I have some free brass again. about 50 rounds, nearly all .308 (probably about 5 or so .243 mixed in there). MSG me for more info.

[Akzle]

Speaking of reloading, I have some free brass again. about 50 rounds, nearly all .308 (probably about 5 or so .243 mixed in there). MSG me for more info.

once fired? Brand?

Giz it

[Akzle]

Speaking of reloading, I have some free brass again. about 50 rounds, nearly all .308 (probably about 5 or so .243 mixed in there). MSG me for more info.

once fired? Brand?

Giz it

[scumdog]

Australia said 'yeah alright' to gun restrictions: Yes, and my impression is that it hasn't done a whole lot to the ability of criminals to access firearms.

Even the Aussies have called their country the 'beige country' because of the over-regulation, can anybody post anything that is LESS regulated in Aussie than in NZ?

An ex-pat guy I know was telling me how he got stopped at a random booze-bus type check, cop noticed a packet of .177 air-rifle slugs in the open glove-box.

Nek minnit said guy was arrested when it was discovered his firearms licence had expired (yes, for slugs!) and taken to cop-shop.

While he was in the cells his house was searched, air-rifle taken, (plus reloading gear from when he used to have centre-fires) he appeared in court - $2,500 in fines and costs, forbidden from applying for firearms licence for TEN years!

Seems reasonable....

[pritch]

Even the Aussies have called their country the 'beige country' because of the over-regulation, can anybody post anything that is LESS regulated in Aussie than in NZ?

Only one that comes to mind is their food industry which used to permit the use of chemicals which ours did not, and some of their regulations have/had much lower standards, eg the amount of meat in a pie.

Lots in the other direction some of which can strike as weird at the time. I'm not sure I've got it the right way around, but I think it was illegal to cook in a motel but was legal in a hotel room? Like I said weird.

When you read the Oz papers on the 'Net there is a strong impression that a higher percentage of their politicians are actual nut jobs than is the case here.

[Akzle]

When you read the Oz papers on the 'Net there is a strong impression that a higher percentage of their politicians are actual nut jobs than is the case here.

err, percentage only goes up to 100...

[cruza]

I disagree.

An AR-15 will fire just about anything, but some of the cheaper crappier ammo can really foul one up. In that case it's time spent reloading to save time cleaning.

Also, as with any gun, you'll get much better results with hand-loaded ammo if you're really keen because you're tuning for things like condition of the threading, amount and stroke length of reciprocating mass and to avoid barrel resonances.

You can get close by carefully testing multiple types of ammo, but that's not likely to leave you picking the cheapest one. You can get the cheapest and just live with the results (probably what I'd do). Alternatively, you can get setup to reload and get the best of both worlds, while saving money to boot.

As per usual, a lot of assertions here without numbers behind them.

From a quick look on Reloaders it looks like you can get below $0.50 per round without too much trouble, that's buying things in the 100-1000 quantity. It does assume you've got a source of brass, but basically if it's cheaper than new ammo, you've always got a source of brass right there.

Best I could see is some remanufactured Belmont ammo at $0.88 each. I'm not sure I'd consider that a good candidate for reloading from, though. I've been having a mare sorting some loose-primer brass out from a batch of .45 given to me by a friend who shoots factory reloaded ammo. Everything else is $1 each or more, although not in any great quantities.

Anyone got any accurate and recent numbers for .223 bought in ~1k+ quantities?

Aoraki ammunition in timaru landed heap of boxer primed brass case pmc ammunition . $530 per 1000 for 55gr fmj , $550 for 62gr I think . Geez if you salvage 50% of the cases after a nights spotlighting its a bargain .