The firearm thread

[husaberg]

I'll reword it for you, I'm fucking dead certain with the weapons legally available to today I could achieve the same result

51 people who would still be alive if it wasn't for the incompetence of the police who vetted him

Thats your opinion which you are entitled to it but one that isn't exactly been shown to be without a degree of personal bias on the mater.
nor does it seem to be entirely reasonable given the circumstances.
Me I prefer a system where it isn't solely reliant on a singular person ticking the right box to potential avoid mass murders being able to buy powerful weapons that have absolutely no practical use aside from killing people.

[TheDemonLord]

Me I prefer a system where it isn't solely reliant on a singular person ticking the right box to potential avoid mass murders being able to buy powerful weapons that have absolutely no practical use aside from killing people.

So you must be well scarred then, because I can think of multiple items, that are reliant on a singular person ticking the right box that have been used for Mass Murders.

[FJRider]

Me I prefer a system where it isn't solely reliant on a singular person ticking the right box to potential avoid mass murders being able to buy powerful weapons that have absolutely no practical use aside from killing people.

The system at the time of Tarrants firearms application process was NOT "A singular person ticking the boxes" ... as REQUIRED in Police policy and rules ... but it was how Police carried out the License application process. Even your remaining three working brain cells could have worked that out.

The Police were not following THEIR own rules. Rules as required in Law. The only reason they gave for this was ... that they were short staffed.

Bugger eh ... !!!

[scumdog]

T
Me I prefer a system where it isn't solely reliant on a singular person ticking the right box to potential avoid mass murders being able to buy powerful weapons that have absolutely no practical use aside from killing people.

Those 'evil black guns' you refer to are frequently used by pest controllers on goat and wallaby


And the issue of an A cat. licence holder buying large capacity magazines had been brought to the attention of police - who declined to do anything about controlling their sale to those not holding an E cat licence.

As an aside, every time theres been a mass shooting in NZ the govt has moved the 'goalpost' (toughened the laws) and sat back saying "See, no more mass shootings"

Until the next one...

[husaberg]

Those 'evil black guns' you refer to are frequently used by pest controllers on goat and wallaby


And the issue of an A cat. licence holder buying large capacity magazines had been brought to the attention of police - who declined to do anything about controlling their sale to those not holding an E cat licence.

As an aside, every time theres been a mass shooting in NZ the govt has moved the 'goalpost' (toughened the laws) and sat back saying "See, no more mass shootings"

Until the next one...

Oh the old pest controller, needs them so all should have them, but you don't mention if they are actually part of their job they can get a license to own and operate. They are not needed at all by A class holders. red hering........
September 2019

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/...-terror-attack
Figures obtained under the Official Information Act show 425 firearms licence holders have applied for 835 prohibited endorsements since 15 March, the day of the terror attacks.
The most popular request was for a Pest Control endorsement, of which the police received 577 applications for both firearms and magazine permits.
The figures show 547 applications are still pending, while 243 have been approved and 36 have been declined.
All of the declined applications were for pest control permits, meaning about 14 percent of processed pest control permit applications have been declined.

The US doesn't change the laws and has open laws and has more mass shootings per capita. How do you explain that?
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/s...post1131164780

lastly, yeah it must be the polices fault, that people were buying and selling large capacity mags and gun shops were selling ar15's and similar specifically modified to float the laws. yeah, blame the police rather than those who were responsible.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/105...ated-by-police
Note the date.
Also

Police Minister Paula Bennett has put the public and front-line police officers in danger after rejecting recommendations to tighten firearm controls, the Police Association says.
Association president Chris Cahill said Bennett had rejected every meaningful recommendation put forward by the Law and Order Select Committee, and had "appeared to bow to the pressure of the gun lobby".
"The Minister's concern about over the top rules and restrictions on hunters and shooters ignores the reality that New Zealand is awash with firearms and the majority of them are stolen."
Bennett today responded to the Law and Order Select Committee report on illegal firearms, accepting only seven of 20 recommendations designed to stop criminals getting their hands on guns.

besides, it couldn't be the laws itself you know those same laws Colfo said were the best in the world and should not be changed.

COLFO New Zealand already has world leading requirements for the legal use of firearms and largely all that can be done is done to prevent criminal misuse: COLFO is of the view that New Zealands’ legislation is world leading. For its cost, effectiveness and results the New Zealand framework is simply as good as it can be and remains comfortably fit for purpose. COLFO considers that its members and the public can and should take pride in the system

COLFO opposes:
• Any amendment to the Arms Act (except as regards tariffs for offending) as this
will make no difference whatsoever to the criminal misuse of forearms;
• Any re-classification of semi-automatic rifles and shotguns to an “E”
endorsement as this will make no difference whatsoever to the criminal use of
firearms and will be counterproductive;
• Any restrictions on the lawful use of the firearms as this will make no difference
to the criminal misuse of firearms and will be counterproductive.

No one has ever said no more mass shooting the end goal is less.

notice how you need to add evil and black why do you need to change the narrative?

[TheDemonLord]

Oh the old pest controller, needs them so all should have them, but you don't mention if they are actually part of their job they can get a license to own and operate. They are not needed at all by A class holders. red hering........

Except a number of people who operated legitimate pest control businesses or side-businesses that couldn't meet the criteria to obtain a P endorsement.

The US doesn't change the laws and has open laws and has more mass shootings per capita. How do you explain that?

How do you explain that most of these happens in States with the most restrictive Gun Laws?

lastly, yeah it must be the polices fault, that people were buying and selling large capacity mags and gun shops were selling ar15's and similar specifically modified to float the laws.

They gave him the licence, in breach of their own rules, so yeah, it IS the Police's fault. Everytime the Law was suggested to be changed and things like restricting High-cap Magazines to an E-Cat licence was floated, the Police wanted to enact further restrictions

No one has ever said no more mass shooting the end goal is less.

So, one every 30 years, that could be entirely prevented if the Police did their job properly - seems like the old laws by your own definition of 'less' were perfectly fine.

[scumdog]

Oh the old pest controller, needs them so all should have them, but you don't mention if they are actually part of their job they can get a license to own and operate. They are not needed at all by A class holders. red hering........
September 2019




The US doesn't change the laws and has open laws and has more mass shootings per capita. How do you explain that?
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/s...post1131164780

lastly, yeah it must be the polices fault, that people were buying and selling large capacity mags and gun shops were selling ar15's and similar specifically modified to float the laws. yeah, blame the police rather than those who were responsible.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/105...ated-by-police
Note the date.
Also

besides, it couldn't be the laws itself you know those same laws Colfo said were the best in the world and should not be changed.




No one has ever said no more mass shooting the end goal is less.

notice how you need to add evil and black why do you need to change the narrative?

(a) I made no claim that EVERYBODY needed one, did I? - but the gist of your comments were that NOBODY NEEDED THEM
(B) The so-called 'gun lobby' approached the powers that be asking the large capacity mags be for E cat holders only but were ignored/told it was not necessary.
(c) The media/politicians made the ''evil black guns' call
(d) Re' the laws were the best in the world' comments - even IF they were? - it would be a waste of time having them if they were ignored by those administering them.

[husaberg]

[QUOTE=scumdog;1131174402](a) I made no claim that EVERYBODY needed one, did I? - but the gist of your comments were that NOBODY NEEDED THEM

Really you claimed Frequently
"Those 'evil black guns' you refer to are frequently used by pest controllers on goat and wallaby."

I claimed no A class license holder "Needed them" no A class license hold does need them.

(B) The so-called 'gun lobby' approached the powers that be asking the large capacity mags be for E cat holders only but were ignored/told it was not necessary.

Do you have some links for this or was it done after the massacre of 51 unarmed innocent people?

COLFO New Zealand already has world leading requirements for the legal use of firearms and largely all that can be done is done to prevent criminal misuse: COLFO is of the view that New Zealands’ legislation is world leading. For its cost, effectiveness and results the New Zealand framework is simply as good as it can be and remains comfortably fit for purpose. COLFO considers that its members and the public can and should take pride in the system

COLFO opposes:
• Any amendment to the Arms Act (except as regards tariffs for offending) as this
will make no difference whatsoever to the criminal misuse of forearms;
• Any re-classification of semi-automatic rifles and shotguns to an “E”
endorsement as this will make no difference whatsoever to the criminal use of
firearms and will be counterproductive;
• Any restrictions on the lawful use of the firearms as this will make no difference
to the criminal misuse of firearms and will be counterproductive.

as I posted the police position which was the law was unenforceable as they were being sold to A-class licence holders and they could do nothing until the second it was put in a A class firearm.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/105...ated-by-police

"It doesn't require a semi-automatic weapon, whether it's got a high-capacity magazine or otherwise, to shoot a lot of people."
Describing police policy, he uses a word fondly held in the firearm community: "ultra-vires", meaning beyond legal authority.
Like Gun City, COLFO is considering legal action to defend the semi-automatic status quo.

(c) The media/politicians made the ''evil black guns' call.

yet you are the one saying I referred to them as this

"Those 'evil black guns' you refer to are frequently used by pest controllers on goat and wallaby."

(d) Re' the laws were the best in the world' comments - even IF they were? - it would be a waste of time having them if they were ignored by those administering them.

They claimed they were and resisted any change I have shown this to be a fact.
You have no evidence they were ignored. The police refused to comment as there was an investigation going on this is normal
Even if someone had made a mistake, And that is an IF it should have been caught the normal process for these sorts of things is someone generates the information, then someone else approves the application.

[FJRider]

I claimed no A class license holder "Needed them" no A class license hold does need them.

They may well be in the pest eradication business ... and may very well "Need" them. But ... the point is moot if they do not have the correct class of license ... it will be illegal for them to own one.

Do you have some links for this or was it done after the massacre of 51 unarmed innocent people?

It was ignored because the laws were changed and no exceptions were made. For any class of weapon.

After the Christchurch mosque shootings in 2019, legislation to restrict semi-automatic firearms and magazines with a capacity of more than 10 rounds, and provide an amnesty and buyback of such weapons was introduced and passed by the New Zealand parliament

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_law_in_New_Zealand

as I posted the police position which was the law was unenforceable as they were being sold to A-class licence holders and they could do nothing until the second it was put in a A class firearm.

The larger magazines are not illegal to own ... just illegal to load and use on a semi-automatic weapon.

Note ...

legislation to restrict semi-automatic firearms and magazines with a capacity of more than 10 rounds was introduced and passed by the New Zealand parliament

I find it laughable that you quote STUFF as a definitive source of facts.

[TheDemonLord]

https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-...eport-30-years

"We investigated ourselves, found we did nothing wrong, and you don't need to know the details for 30 years"

Fuck.
Right.
Off.

[husaberg]

https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-...eport-30-years

"We investigated ourselves, found we did nothing wrong, and you don't need to know the details for 30 years"

Fuck.
Right.
Off.

We? one is a supreme court judge, the other has a law degree and was an ambassador to multiple countries we can rest assured both are more qualified and have greater levels of impartiality and know more than you do.

Sir William is a Supreme Court Judge, and former President of the Court of Appeal of New Zealand. He was appointed to the Supreme Court in June 2010.
Sir William graduated from the University of Canterbury in 1974 with an LLB with first class honours and was awarded the Gold Medal in Law by the then Canterbury District Law Society for being the top graduating law student in his year.
Sir William then completed a PhD at Cambridge University and returned to New Zealand to enter legal practice in Christchurch. From being a partner in his firm, Young Hunter, he became a Barrister Sole in 1988 and a Queen’s Counsel in 1991. In his QC role, Sir William acted in several high profile cases.

In 1997, Sir William was appointed a Judge of the High Court, progressing to the Court of Appeal (2004), the Presidency of the Court of Appeal (2006) and the Supreme Court (2010).

Jacqui Caine (Ngāi Tahu, Kāti Māmoe, Waitaha), was New Zealand’s Ambassador to Chile, Colombia, Peru, Ecuador, and Bolivia, from 2015 to 2018. Since February this year, she has been working for Te Rūnanga o Ngāi Tahu. She comes from Bluff but currently lives in Christchurch.

Jacqui studied law and commerce at Otago University in New Zealand. She was a career diplomat and has had a number of roles in the New Zealand Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade including in the Trade Negotiations Division, Legal Division and Americas Division.
Jacqui has also served as the Deputy Ambassador to Singapore and Mexico and Deputy High Commissioner to Vanuatu.

[TheDemonLord]

We? one is a supreme court judge, the other has a law degree and was an ambassador to multiple countries we can rest assured both are more qualified and have greater levels of impartiality and know more than you do.

I couldn't give a toss about their Credentials. Their actions have already spoken for them.

I DO give a toss about redacting information in a report that is in the Public interest.

And it's not like it's just us Uppity Firearm owners who are still upset at our Rights being pissed on.

Turns out the Muslim community also feel the same way.

[husaberg]

Looking at the facts in relation to the report They know more than you, They are more qualified than you, they had access to all the information. They have a far greater level of both intelligence and impartiality.
Yet it appears you are aggrieved they never came to the same conclusion as you thought they should, based on your lower level of impartiality talent and qualifications and evidence.
Unless you feel you know more than NZ supreme court judge does about legal or procedural matters relating to the law or this case in particular?
Case closed.

[TheDemonLord]

Looking at the facts in relation to the report They know more than you, They are more qualified than you, they had access to all the information. They have a far greater level of both intelligence and impartiality.
Yet it appears you are aggrieved they never came to the same conclusion as you thought they should, based on your lower level of impartiality talent and qualifications and evidence.
Unless you feel you know more than NZ supreme court judge does about legal or procedural matters relating to the law or this case in particular?
Case closed.

You've managed to spectacularly miss the point.

If you can't tell the difference between agreeing with the conclusion of a report and transparency of the information used to reach that conclusion - then there's not much hope for you.

[husaberg]

yeah...........

"We investigated ourselves, found we did nothing wrong, and you don't need to know the details for 30 years"

Fuck.
Right.
Off.

Commissioners say a lengthy suppression of the full evidence is necessary to avoid inspiring future attacks. The transcript of the interview with the attacker Brenton Tarrant will not be released.
Commissioners Sir William Young and Jacqui Caine said “full publication of the evidence could provide a "how-to manual for future terrorists" and expected that after 30 years those fears would likely have "dissipated”.
Confidentiality was also a reason for the suppression of evidence, with commissioners saying the people they spoke to were advised the process was “private”.
"We told them that our process was private and that we would not publish in our report what they told us without first going back to them."
"We did this with a view to encouraging candour, which we received

Oddly you never had an issue with the 911 reports information being redacted as it was done for the same reasons as stated in the NZ commission.