The firearm thread

**pritch** · 4th January 2022, 10:03

Originally Posted by Kickaha

A friend of mine who is a competition pistol shooter does some training for the police, he doesn't have a very high opinion of their ability but said they basically don't get or do enough range time

That training wouldn't necessarily solve the problem I was referring to. Competition shooting is one thing, and I was a competition shooter, when bullets are coming back at you though, that's a whole nutha thing. The police training I saw ignored this latter development completely. Even if the instructors had seen the old military training manuals they would have been teaching better technique, but the guys running the training had obviously not seen the manuals.

There are usually guys in the Police who have the required knowledge, but they are thin on the ground and not available everywhere.

**R650R** · 4th January 2022, 10:47

Never mind the training/lack of/frequency the real problem in nz is the politically correct rules of engagement. Even in a physical altercation/arrest the police are restricted in what parts of the body they are allowed to strike and what they can strike with.
Anyone who has done any kind of martial arts cringes watching some of the unnecessarily awkward takedowns cops are forced to do. There are many things you can do that are unpleasant for the attacker but will not result in serious long term injury but are outside the “rules of the game”...
To confound this problem police are now forced to recruit on ethnic/race based criteria which obviously diminishes the selection made from the group of people with best life experience/skills base.
To their credit though in recent t times when nz cops have HAD to fire their weapons they’ve actually been taking out the bad guys, so their doing ok overall.
Really though how often do Hollywood style levels of marksman ship be required? If the guy has hostage that will fegerevyo withdrawal and sepecialist armed Offenders Squad. If a general duties cop needs to present a weapon it’s because a nutter is charging them with a weapon uncompliant to instructions. Then it’s just a case of pull the trigger at centre of body mass close range.

**pritch** · 4th January 2022, 15:39

Originally Posted by R650R

To their credit though in recent t times when nz cops have HAD to fire their weapons they’ve actually been taking out the bad guys, so their doing ok overall.

One person's 'doing OK' is another person's fail. The Commisioner would probably agree with you, but in recent times the police have lost a few of their own and there's the small matter of collateral damage and a dead civilian.

Originally Posted by R650R

Then it’s just a case of pull the trigger at centre of body mass close range.

From what I saw they mainly practice at 7m. There are reasons for that, some of which I believe to be spurious, but also because their statistics say that's where most police shootings happen internationally. Close enough for your centre mass at close range but even that would be optimistic. There was an instance during an attempted bank robbery in town here where a cop emptied his pistol at a guy in the same room for a result of one minor flesh wound.

**TheDemonLord** · 4th January 2022, 15:59

Originally Posted by pritch

From what I saw they mainly practice at 7m. There are reasons for that, some of which I believe to be spurious, but also because their statistics say that's where most police shootings happen internationally.

7 Meters is approx 21 feet - which I believe is the Tueller Distance. That is - just a bit further than the average person armed with a contact weapon (Knife, Club etc.) can close the distance and strike before being incapacitated. Assuming that the defender has their Firearm holstered.

So, yeah - 7 Meters sounds about right for what they should drill at, as that would be the stand-off distance they would likely be wanting to maintain between them and an armed suspect.

**F5 Dave** · 4th January 2022, 16:20

Originally Posted by pritch

One person's 'doing OK' is another person's fail. The Commisioner would probably agree with you, but in recent times the police have lost a few of their own and there's the small matter of collateral damage and a dead civilian.

From what I saw they mainly practice at 7m. There are reasons for that, some of which I believe to be spurious, but also because their statistics say that's where most police shootings happen internationally. Close enough for your centre mass at close range but even that would be optimistic. There was a instance during an attempted bank robbery in town here where a cop emptied his pistol at a guy in the same room for a result of one minor flesh wound.

Where did the other bullets go?
You know? If anyone else cares?

**pritch** · 5th January 2022, 08:39

Originally Posted by F5 Dave

Where did the other bullets go?
You know? If anyone else cares?

Into the wall? The cops knew about this robbery attempt in advance, they had guys in the bank and outside, our man was inside. The Police plan was published in the paper subsequently. The drawing was hilarious. If the cops had all opened up they'd have been shooting at each other.

Ambushes are best kept simple. A simple one sided shape is preferable. An L shape might be OK. A box shape is generally not recommended,

but that was pretty much what they had drawn. Or as the saying goes, a circular firing squad.

**husaberg** · 6th January 2022, 18:09

**F5 Dave** · 6th January 2022, 19:19

Well here's a cherry story

https://i.stuff.co.nz/world/us-canad...utside-walmart

What they needed was a good guy with a gun.

**pritch** · 8th January 2022, 09:53

Originally Posted by TheDemonLord

7 Meters is approx 21 feet - which I believe is the Tueller Distance. That is - just a bit further than the average person armed with a contact weapon (Knife, Club etc.) can close the distance and strike before being incapacitated. Assuming that the defender has their Firearm holstered.

So, yeah - 7 Meters sounds about right for what they should drill at, as that would be the stand-off distance they would likely be wanting to maintain between them and an armed suspect.

The seven yard thing was a suggestion in a magazine article, but it has become universal and some US police forces have come to regard it as law. It isn't, it was a hypothetical proposition in a magazine article. A reasonable one, but it's not law. There's a YouTube clip of some dude having a mental health episode, he's just walking along the footpath with a number of cops following him along trying to communicate. One of the cops ran in front and stopped when the guy approached to about seven yards he was shot. I doubt that was ever the intention of the original author.

**TheDemonLord** · 8th January 2022, 12:55

Originally Posted by pritch

The seven yard thing was a suggestion in a magazine article, but it has become universal and some US police forces have come to regard it as law. It isn't, it was a hypothetical proposition in a magazine article. A reasonable one, but it's not law. There's a YouTube clip of some dude having a mental health episode, he's just walking along the footpath with a number of cops following him along trying to communicate. One of the cops ran in front and stopped when the guy approached to about seven yards he was shot. I doubt that was ever the intention of the original author.

That's kinda missing a couple of key points, whilst it was in a Magazine article - it was an experimentally derived answer:

They timed how long it took the average officer to Draw and fire their weapon (1.5 Seconds) from an initial stimulus, then timed how far someone could run and stab someone in that distance.

They even did it on Mythbusters - where they found that at 20 ft (6.1 m) the Average person was able to get a shot off at the attacker, but only just as they reached them - at which point the person getting shot centre mass would still have enough momentum/blood to strike the person.

As for what is and isn't the law - you kinda contradict yourself - in that when it comes to Self Defense, there is a standard of Reasonableness. Therefore, if it's reasonable that someone within 7 meters, armed with a knife is capable of reaching you before you draw your weapon, then you've fulfilled part of the legal requirements.

By saying it's reasonable, you're saying it meets the legal standard.

Now - I agree that someone having a Mental Health episode and getting shot isn't ideal. Ideally, they get treatment. Reality is, however, that at that distance, he becomes a threat and if he's acting Crazy, The officer has to decide if it's Crazy-but-harmless or Crazy-and-deadly.

Put it this way: If there's an alternative option that can reliably fully incapacitate a Human Male that is hyped up on Adrenalin (either from Drugs, Mental issues or other) without being lethal - I'll champion that as the alternative.

I'm reminded of the incident in NZ when the cop shot the guy that was busy smashing up the high street and everyone pilloried the Officer.

**pritch** · 12th January 2022, 19:25

Originally Posted by TheDemonLord

I'm reminded of the incident in NZ when the cop shot the guy that was busy smashing up the high street and everyone pilloried the Officer.

An interesting example. The guy was not shot for 'smashing up' McLean Sreet, he was shot when he headed for the female cop wielding a 'weapon'. My first reaction on seeing a photo of the deceased in the paper was to thank the lord that we wouldn't have to listen to, or read, a lot of crap about racist police. The person in the photo looked white to me. OK, apparently he wasn't as white as he appeared. The PM at the time, Helen Clark, raised racism as a potential motive for the Police shooting.

I know the cop in question, although we aren't mates or anything. Appearances suggest that there's more Maori in his whakapapa than in that of the the deceased. I'm assuming the commisioner made that information available to Ms Clark because she shut up fairly quick.

I'm told there is something of a shrine at the local cemetery. I'm also told that the shotee 'nutted off' frequenty and that his family would head for the hills and hide during these episodes. Now though he's an innocent killed by racist police. Yeah right.

None of which is to say that institutional racism does not actually exist.

**TheDemonLord** · 12th January 2022, 20:44

Originally Posted by pritch

An interesting example. The guy was not shot for 'smashing up' McLean Sreet, he was shot when he headed for the female cop wielding a 'weapon'. My first reaction on seeing a photo of the deceased in the paper was to thank the lord that we wouldn't have to listen to, or read, a lot of crap about racist police. The person in the photo looked white to me. OK, apparently he wasn't as white as he appeared. The PM at the time, Helen Clark, raised racism as a potential motive for the Police shooting.

I know the cop in question, although we aren't mates or anything. Appearances suggest that there's more Maori in his whakapapa than in that of the the deceased. I'm assuming the commisioner made that information available to Ms Clark because she shut up fairly quick.

I'm told there is something of a shrine at the local cemetery. I'm also told that the shotee 'nutted off' frequenty and that his family would head for the hills and hide during these episodes. Now though he's an innocent killed by racist police. Yeah right.

I was going off memory - I personally thought the treatment of the Officer was BS - I also remember the counter argument that Policy was that he should back off and let the Armed Offenders squad deal with it, which was nice in theory - but as you say - he was shot when he presented a threat.

And isn't it ironic, your position on this, I'm reminded of quite a number of topical incidents of late where terrible people who have done terrible things and are filmed doing more terrible things, get shot for their terrible behavior - then certain segments of society (with an Axe to grind) portray them as the Patron Saint of Gentleness, yet for the examples where you don't have personal knowledge, you sit on the other side of the fence.

Just a thought...

Originally Posted by pritch

None of which is to say that institutional racism does not actually exist.

Of course, but here's the regular reminder that said concept was 'invented' by a raving Black Supremacist Marxist, who said very nice things about a certain Adolf... How much attention you think we should pay to ideas by such a person is up to you...

**pritch** · 12th January 2022, 21:07

Originally Posted by TheDemonLord

And isn't it ironic, your position on this, I'm reminded of quite a number of topical incidents of late where terrible people who have done terrible things and are filmed doing more terrible things, get shot for their terrible behavior - then certain segments of society (with an Axe to grind) portray them as the Patron Saint of Gentleness, yet for the examples where you don't have personal knowledge, you sit on the other side of the fence.

Meanwhile back in Lala land...

**husaberg** · 12th January 2022, 22:15

Originally Posted by pritch

Meanwhile back in Lala land...

no need for armed police you could have a good guy with a gun preferably an ar15 or even better an Ar18
It seem someone misses that Shargin Stephens and Steven wallace before him and were not shot for their ethnicity or for damaging property, but were shot as they were going at armed police officers armed with weapons despite warnings.