The firearm thread

**Banditbandit** · 12th December 2019, 11:46

Originally Posted by scumdog

Except for the smuggled in guns every gun entering the country has required an import licence or permit of some sort.

So in theory the government SHOULD know how many of a particular type of gun are out there.

But they don't

What an unmitigated clustrefuck!

Yes - exactly .... an unmitigated clusterfuck

Originally Posted by Laava

Which govt are to blame for that tho Scummy? It is irrelevant actually but is not the current one. I remember the permit to procure days and when they moved to the current license, that was the time to create a register. Big mistake as it turns out. Very very hard to fix that retrospectively.

Originally Posted by TheDemonLord

Why?

The point about the Import process is because of the repeated Lie of 'we don't know how many are out there'.

And I say lie for a number of reasons:

1: Either they don't know, which if true presents a problem - namely if you are required to issue a permit to import and keep a record of it and you fail to do that, it's impossible to then claim that the same entity will be able to keep a record in another format.

2: They do know, but if they let that slip it partially sinks the registry argument and will show people just how much a full Buy-Back would cost.

Furthermore - As Aoraki ammunition pointed out - The Police knew what Firearms that the Terrorist had - so for all the Registry advocates - please explain how that prevented the Mass Shooting?

They simply do not know - once upon a time, as Laava has pointed out, there was a permit to procure process and the police knew what guns each person owned. An accurate register of legal guns.

To even buy a gun off a mate you had to get a permit to procure - for each and every gun that was bought. Getting such a permit required a vetting process FOR EACH GUN!

The replacement system means I can sell my guns to anyone who has a licence - and the police are not involved.

I have three guns bought from mates, without any sort of permit other than the plastic card Firearms licence .. so the police have no idea I have these guns ...

At the time the new system was brought in, the police dumped their records (may be retrievable) - so the gun I bought in the 1970s they probably have no record that I own that one either ..

If they have no records from that period, then they simply do not know how many legal guns there are in the country .. some may have been lost or destroyed - the police simply do not know ..

They do not know how many firearms licence holders have bought guns from illegal sources .. or how many firearms holders have sold guns to illegal people .. They simply do not know .

The only thing the police really know is that I have a firearms licence ....

**TheDemonLord** · 12th December 2019, 12:02

Originally Posted by Banditbandit

They simply do not know - once upon a time, as Laava has pointed out, there was a permit to procure process and the police knew what guns each person owned. An accurate register of legal guns.

To even buy a gun off a mate you had to get a permit to procure - for each and every gun that was bought. Getting such a permit required a vetting process FOR EACH GUN!

The replacement system means I can sell my guns to anyone who has a licence - and the police are not involved.

I have three guns bought from mates, without any sort of permit other than the plastic card Firearms licence .. so the police have no idea I have these guns ...

At the time the new system was brought in, the police dumped their records (may be retrievable) - so the gun I bought in the 1970s they probably have no record that I own that one either ..

If they have no records from that period, then they simply do not know how many legal guns there are in the country .. some may have been lost or destroyed - the police simply do not know ..

They do not know how many firearms licence holders have bought guns from illegal sources .. or how many firearms holders have sold guns to illegal people .. They simply do not know .

The only thing the police really know is that I have a firearms licence ....

So, they have a starting point, which let's pretend the register from the 1970s was accurate (we know it wasn't) - since then, they have had to issue the import permits for every Firearm in the country, we don't have any native Firearm manufacturing capacity of any significant quantity.

Starting integer + each permit issued = Total number of Firearms in the country with an acceptable error margin.

However, to answer the more important question - the Police should not need to know how many you have, only that you are properly licenced to own that which you do.

Now, from there if we want to talk about ways to stop firearms from getting into Illegal hands - by all means - however the notion that a Register will help here is laughable.

**scumdog** · 13th December 2019, 19:50

Originally Posted by Banditbandit

Yes - exactly .... an unmitigated clusterfuck

They simply do not know - once upon a time, as Laava has pointed out, there was a permit to procure process and the police knew what guns each person owned. An accurate register of legal guns.

To even buy a gun off a mate you had to get a permit to procure - for each and every gun that was bought. Getting such a permit required a vetting process FOR EACH GUN!

The replacement system means I can sell my guns to anyone who has a licence - and the police are not involved.

I have three guns bought from mates, without any sort of permit other than the plastic card Firearms licence .. so the police have no idea I have these guns ...

At the time the new system was brought in, the police dumped their records (may be retrievable) - so the gun I bought in the 1970s they probably have no record that I own that one either ..

If they have no records from that period, then they simply do not know how many legal guns there are in the country .. some may have been lost or destroyed - the police simply do not know ..

They do not know how many firearms licence holders have bought guns from illegal sources .. or how many firearms holders have sold guns to illegal people .. They simply do not know .

The only thing the police really know is that I have a firearms licence ....

The cops discovered the register was in more tatters and disarray than a brides nightie - hence why they canned the idea.

And crims wouldn't register guns anyway.

**Swoop** · 14th December 2019, 19:29

Originally Posted by scumdog

And crims wouldn't register guns anyway.

You can understand my complete and utter surprise at the Confiscation Event, when I didn't see one single gang member. Not one!
Would have thought they'd be lining up to show what upstanding citizens they are.

[/sarcasm mode]

**JimO** · 15th December 2019, 07:20

Originally Posted by Swoop

You can understand my complete and utter surprise at the Confiscation Event, when I didn't see one single gang member. Not one!
Would have thought they'd be lining up to show what upstanding citizens they are.

[/sarcasm mode]

the gangs arnt the problem, this government loves gangs and general shitkkikrs, its the law abiding joe lunchbox who is the enemy and landlords those cunts are evil

**pritch** · 30th December 2019, 11:58

You'd need to be a bit hard of thinking to try this in Texas.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-50942664

**oldrider** · 30th December 2019, 16:27

Originally Posted by pritch

You'd need to be a bit hard of thinking to try this in Texas.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-50942664

Quoted with the video I saw of this shooting:-

[Quoted]Today an armed citizen at church prevented a mass shooting from happening

Dozens could have been killed

Why isn’t the media putting this hero on the front page of every news site and honouring his actions?[unquote] - Totally agree with the question? - Karma?

Nice one!

**pritch** · 31st December 2019, 16:48

Originally Posted by Banditbandit

once upon a time, as Laava has pointed out, there was a permit to procure process and the police knew what guns each person owned. An accurate register of legal guns.

That is a major fallacy. A myth. The permits were on individual pieces of paper which were stored in police stations all over the country. And there were a lot more police stations then than now.

If someone bought different firearms in different towns, as I did, there was no complete record. In my case New Plymouth held one, Wellington held one. Neither knew about the other.

There was no national register at all other than for the controlled classes of firearms, and that register was in complete disarray. Any resemblance between the records and reality was almost entirely coincidental.

**austingtir** · 31st December 2019, 16:54

Originally Posted by oldrider

Quoted with the video I saw of this shooting:-

[Quoted]Today an armed citizen at church prevented a mass shooting from happening

Dozens could have been killed

Why isn’t the media putting this hero on the front page of every news site and honouring his actions?[unquote] - Totally agree with the question? - Karma?

Nice one!

Because it doesnt fit the narrative they are pushing. Just the same as Black Israelites going on stabbing/shooting sprees in Jewish synagogues in NYC over the last month doesnt fit the narrative they want to push so they will give the story lip service and hope it disappears from the news cycle quietly.

People need to wake up to what we are dealing with here....

**jasonu** · 11th January 2020, 14:15

Who thinks this is a highly excessive response to someone suspected of posessing .22 magazine?
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/a...ectid=12299600

**Laava** · 11th January 2020, 18:55

Originally Posted by jasonu

Who thinks this is a highly excessive response to someone suspected of posessing .22 magazine?
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/a...ectid=12299600

Who else thinks this is a boring story, with only one side presented? Read between the lines a bit and it is obvious why the police did what they did.

**Kickaha** · 11th January 2020, 21:11

Originally Posted by Laava

Who else thinks this is a boring story, with only one side presented? Read between the lines a bit and it is obvious why the police did what they did.

When you say read between the lines do you mean make shit up to suit whatever story you want to believe in ?

**Laava** · 11th January 2020, 21:34

Originally Posted by Kickaha

When you say read between the lines do you mean make shit up to suit whatever story you want to believe in ?

No, not me personally, but if we were to hear the other perspective, unexagerrated/exagerrated in a different slant, it would be a completely different story I bet.
The truth lies , as always, somewhere in between. At that point it is prob a pretty boring and hardly newsworthy story, was my point.

for instance, the first thing I saw that made little sense is the claim that the cops were looking for a magazine, whereas in fact they were looking for an illegal rifle that the complainant had stated he owned but had not clarified that he had disposed of it. That is how I understand it.
Did the cops over-react? Yeah, probably.
Has the complainant got something to whinge about? Not really.

**husaberg** · 11th January 2020, 21:50

Originally Posted by Laava

No, not me personally, but if we were to hear the other perspective, unexagerrated/exagerrated in a different slant, it would be a completely different story I bet.
The truth lies , as always, somewhere in between. At that point it is prob a pretty boring and hardly newsworthy story, was my point.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/cri...nd-during-raid
https://www.stuff.co.nz/taranaki-dai...mouth-gang-pad
https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-...hurch-gang-pad
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm

500 firearms had been seized during law enforcement incidents, including police responding to family harm callouts and finding firearms in the home.
Weapons have also been confiscated during vehicle stops during high-profile or significant offending and during raids on organised crime and gang figures.