Now the Maoris want their kumaras back

[elle-f]

Dover are you firing AGAIN??? It amazes me just how angry you are. Are you like this in real life because I would imagine that you swore, name called and hit anybody that didn't agree with your narrow views You actually make me laugh.

Here is the shame........I understand what you are saying. Now, I thought you were leaving this alone and heading off. Seems that you have changed your mind for whatever reason.

If you care to respond.....I don't actually understand what it is that you are getting so pissed off about. Is it because I am saying something that I believe in as you do? Is it because I don't agree with your stance on things? Is it because I just don't agree with the tone you are using? Is it because I didn't get angry at your name calling when you said I was fat and ugly? Is it because you want me? HAHAHA

What stuns me is this Dover. During the holidays I met somebody who I have met before off this site and your name was mentioned as being a great guy. They had met you in real life. I kept that in the back of my mind during the past couple of days but it's getting harder to see that - honestly. I guess the name calling kind of did it for me and the amount of swearing and bullying tactics you are trying to use on me. The reason I don't react is because it's kind of playground stuff

Now, before you swear at me again or name call or whatever tactic you are going to use - I am not going to go anywhere. I have the same right as you have to be in this thread or any other thread and quite frankly, I responded because there was another view that needed to be put out there. I could have chosen to keep quiet but hell, I musta been bored at the time and decided to post.

IF you want me to shut up - I suggest YOU do and then all will be quiet

Have the most wonderful night if you do decide to be quiet.

Kia Ora e hoa
Elle

[Ixion]

We were never hunting to extinction - we were self sufficient and amazingly didn't have to have quota either because we used sustainability and conservation, and I hardly think Maori in those days starved

Sorry, yes they did starve. Starvation was common in Pre European NZ, and a primary factor in the endemic tribal warfare. And the historical evidence seems fairly conclusive that Maori hunted the Moa into extinction (not hard, it was an evolutionary dead end, and the Maori desparately needed protein)

Talking about houses etc that you want back - do you really think Maori were not trading BEFORE the British arrived? I suggest you take a look at some history! We were heading overseas and had huge trading ports anyhow so one would think.......that we would have had everything that we needed anyhow.

,,.

Sources please. I am not aware of any reputable authority for ANY form of external trading by pre European Maori (pre ToW , certainly - my ancestors amonst them. But that's quite a different matter. The ToW concluded a chapter, it diodn't begin one)

[elle-f]

ya know - we could argue this till the cows come home and we are never going to agree. We both have different sources and experiences and what we were told. It's that agreeing to disagree thing! Again, I am not going to change anybody's views in this thread and it's really a waste of time trying to. I know there was poverty and hardship but I also know there were thriving communities much like today. I am just bloody glad I didn't live in those days - I wouldn't have survived for sure!

[spookytooth]

http://www.zealand.org.nz/history.htm

[sunhuntin]

yanno...sometimes i wish us english had waited a couple hundred years before coming here. then we wouldnt have all this crap!

and yeh..maori isnt a written language; why the bitching over whether my home town has an "H" in it or not? if it wasnt written, then it could be spelt any old way and still be correct.

extinction: the others have spoken for me. you cant blame the big eagles and tar pits for the amazing lack of moa. or the lack of big eagles for that matter [these were pointed out to me by an american actually] whered they go? hmmmm......

self sufficient? why then, did we whites get the blame when an unsupervised maori child drowned in the moutua fountain during the bullshit occupation? they made the council fill in the fountain, after letting their own kid drown and knocking the head of a statue. they cant even watch a kid while sittin on their asses and blame everyone else.

if the europeans had waited a few hundred years, you would not exist. your "power things" would be sunk into the earth and no evidence would remain. just like the blonde and blue fairy things mentioned a few pages back. wonder where they went? same as the moa perhaps?

and yeh...im referring to those in the headlines, cos there dont seem to be many "just wanna be kiwi maoris" in the news. wonder why??

[candor]

Sources please. I am not aware of any reputable authority for ANY form of external trading by pre European Maori (pre ToW , certainly - my ancestors amonst them. But that's quite a different matter. The ToW concluded a chapter, it diodn't begin one)

What is reputable - oral history, carved history or only written. When at polytech they bought that phoenician or sumerian bird the Maori have round for us to touch. Its been with Maori an eternity - hmmm.

Also the cave paintings of elephants down Nelson way were supposedly pre European. Kumara - evidence of trade with South America.

Oral histories or return trips to Pacific Islands which fed into the Maori bloodlines. And then there is the hidden archaeological finds of metal gear, coffins etc. Used by co-habitors of Maori or perhaps simply items traded.
Bells off Spanish ships I think are another one.

New Zealand does have a rich history most of which is suppressed without need for PC reasons. I remember a scholar tour guide saying as much when he took my class on a trip round Canterbury museum when I was 5.

Oh to hunt thru the non displayed items. NZ is not alone in this, I know for a fact it occurs elsewhere eg the dead sea scrolls were long hidden from public scrutiny by corrupted academics after discovery.

Professional reputations of Uni people who got tenure and rep based on certain theories are one reason why the truth is often by the wayside.

Incidentally a major eruption at some point is said to have helped extinctions along, those giant eagles went around 1400 I think - not sure of eruption year. Fires of Tamatea another factor.

Oh I forgot. BEFORE THE TREATY SIGNING MAORI HAD 200 SHIPS REGISTERED IN AUCKLAND - EXPORTING
FLAX/FLOUR ETC. DOING VERY WELL TA, UPSKILLED BY MULTIMATIONAL M8'S - UNTIL THE PRIME LAND
CONFISCATIONS BY JEALOUS ASSHOLES

[elle-f]

Ya know Candor - btw I think I am in love - we must read the same things I really just think that in a forum that has a tone like this that anything that you say - is going to get thrown back.

[Ixion]

What is reputable - oral history, carved history or only written. When at polytech they bought that phoenician or sumerian bird the Maori have round for us to touch. Its been with Maori an eternity - hmmm.

Phoenica long predates maori themselves. If there was any contact between Phoenica (and it most unlikely that there was direct contact rather than through an intermediatary) it was betwene the Phoenicians and Polynesians or Asian ancestors of the Maori.

Also the cave paintings of elephants down Nelson way were supposedly pre European.

And supposedly pre Maori also

Kumara - evidence of trade with South America.

Certainly not evidence. The entire argument of this thread is that the NZ kumara species were unique. If they came from South America that whole argument fails . Plants spread by many means, not just trade.

Oral histories or return trips to Pacific Islands which fed into the Maori bloodlines. And then there is the hidden archaeological finds of metal gear, coffins etc. Used by co-habitors of Maori or perhaps simply items traded.
Bells off Spanish ships I think are another one.

Polynesian islands, I may grant you. Ships bells etc do not establish trade, merely that (perhaps) a European ship, pre Tasman , was wrecked here.

,,
To establish trade , you need to show evidence at BOTH ends. ie if A trades with B, then both A and B will have some record of the fact. If the Maori were trading with other races, then those other races should have some memory or record of the fact. I know of no indication that any other (non polynesian) race had any reference at all to Maoris pre Tasman.

[candor]

Ok you got me - one brass bell and a sumeria bird in a kumera tree doth not a booming trade industry maketh. I tried.

[Nicksta]

ffs, when is this stupidity going to end?

[avgas]

ffs, when is this stupidity going to end?

When the yanks or chinese take over

[RC1]

if they take all the Kumara where will Dargaville live?

probably at the toka toka pub,

[u4ea]

In early 2000, Denis Welch, journalist for The New Zealand Listener Magazine, sought official sanction to formally visit the structures of the Waipoua Forest. He was immediately 'advised by DOC to get clearance from Te Roroa'. Parties are directed by DOC to consult with one, Alex Nathan, who invariably refuses entry. Denis Welch was told that he was not permitted to inspect the ruins.
If people wish to seek Te Roroa approval to visit these non-Maori structures then they are advised to consult with other, more reasonable and spiritual, Te Roroa members. This author has Te Roroa approval to visit the sites at any time he wishes and almost always goes to the structures with Te Roroa Iwi companions.
In 1999, a film crew from Greenstone Pictures, making a documentary for TV1 titled, Who Was Here First, politely asked to film the structures. They also were refused by the Nathan's and had to resort to filming Noel Hilliam's old photographs for Waipoua Forest footage.
Mike Havoc, New Zealand television personality, requested that this author take him to see and film the structures. His producer insisted upon getting "approval"...therefore, nothing ever eventuated.
Where are the real carbon dating figures, related to the Waipoua Forest archaeological dig, seen by Noel Hilliam in the 1980's?
The Waipoua Forest sites are still on public land, administered by the Department of Conservation and it is the right of all New Zealanders to hike throughout the area, with no known legal restriction posted by the Archaeological Division of DOC.
Despite this, visitors to the area, wishing to visit the ruins, are oftimes followed by carloads of locals who threaten them with violence if they don't leave the area. Other's, returning to their vehicles after visiting the ruins, find threatening notes left by the self-proclaimed owners. One recent note (3rd of July 2001) stated:

you have entered this area without prior authority and act as thieves the next time you do this you will be treated as such and suffer loss

13/7/2001

my concern is the maori demand respect for their maraes(meeting houses)and sacred grounds(tapu)yet I am not allowed into a sacred part where my ancestors may be resting????????hell I even have to visit a marae as part of the corricullum........
I am soooooooo sick of all the bullshit and non sensicle data I have no choice but to do .............

[Switch]

BAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAAHAAHAHAHAHA

[Lou Girardin]

We didn't write anyhow as it's an oral language, We were never hunting to extinction - we were self sufficient and amazingly didn't have to have quota either because we used sustainability and conservation, and I hardly think Maori in those days starved Talking about houses etc that you want back - do you really think Maori were not trading BEFORE the British arrived? I suggest you take a look at some history! We were heading overseas and had huge trading ports anyhow so one would think.......that we would have had everything that we needed anyhow.

Dear oh dear, you have been captured by the 'official' Maori history haven't you?
Why hasn't evidence of the "huge trading ports" been found? Where are the ocean-going freight wakas?
Did the Moa's commit suicide?
Who's hunting the Kereru onto the endangered list?
Who's stripping the Paua beds?
A grip on reality is needed.