*Warning* Maori sovereignty thread *Warning*

[candor]

"Responsibilities and duties" was what the resource management act was about and why Otaki has degrees in resource management.

So you're saying it's a publicity stunt? Maybe. One law - one people. Then whose law shall it be? In Remuera well after the treaty was signed settlers agreed to be subject to Maori tribal law if they did minor offenses but the deal was Maori who raped or kiled Europeans got settler law. Chiefs agreed to hand them over for this but had they not been in agreement no way would it have happened. This was a considerably better option than Maori law at the time so likely crims were nodding away. Normally they would have run their own systems right up to the occupation at Parihaka but as there was a bit of mixing theRemuera people had a meeting to sort their own wee system out. (Roper report)

[Colapop]

Responsibilities and duties are what parents should have toward their children.

[avgas]

NAZI's for me nazi's for you - ill have some nazi you have some too.
Ownership stuff in this country is bs.
No one owns nothing. Not even the maori.
Its all on long term loan from Satan.

[Ixion]

You miss the point. regardless of treaties and such like - "Maori sovereignty" ? Sovereignty to WHICH Maoris? Me? And the (at least) half million other descendants of those chiefs, who have not the slightest connection or sympathy with those making all the noise.

Or an elitist self appointed group who for the most part have no more right to make any claim than any out of those half million . (The actual figure may be far more) . And have no right to claim to speak for me, or the half million.

So who are these "Maori"? And what right to they have to claim such sovereignty. They cannot rest such a claim on any treaty, for any such treaty rights must devolve to ALL the descendants of the treaty signatories, and those on whose behalf they signed.

I have as much right, and more , to claim to be Maori, as does Ken Muir. And I repudiate absolutely any right he may claim to speak for me or Maoris in general . And I have not the slightest interest in "sovereignty". Nor does the guy across the street, he's Maori too. Or the two dudes I work with, they're more Maori than Ken. Or my mothers neighbour and best friend, she's a Maori princess. Or any of the dozens of Maoris I know, though the fact that they are Maori is completely incidental.

If there is any right anywhere to some "Maori sovereignty" it's a right for US not Ken and his like.

[candor]

Are you sure it's long term. I feel time is speeding up.

Uh huh "Sovereignty to WHICH Maoris?". That is the question. Who rules if this sovereignty is speaking not of individual cultural rights but of desire for a seperate political structure (or rather acknowledgement of what exists).

High born chiefly descendents who may be low life degenerates (or not) in their own areas, the elected, the achievers, those with the biggest mouths or best connections. A suspicious but worthy question.

In traditional society the women wore the pants. Men defended land and women allocated it, which meant men had to keep in the ladies good books. Tohunga pulled the chiefs strings pretty much too.

PS their claim does not just rest on the treaty but other agreements too as I'm sure you know. Contracts were binding on future generations to old time Maori (that was understood and need not be written), who had the looongest memories.

[Colapop]

In traditional Maori society inter-tribal disputes quite often ended in bloodshed. Is that more cultured than the system of governance we have now? The fractured and competitive nature of tribal life means that there is not now and will not be Maori unity towards a system of governance that all Maori agree on. Unless the people who are trying divide this society understand that the future, which includes retention of Maori culture, language etc, is by being part of a community.

[Clivoris]

Here we go...
I believe that New Zealand is the best country in the world, the way it is, right now. I am white. I am Maori. I am Pakeha. I am a New Zealander.

- I don't give a flying fuck about race. I do care about race, but I care more about how people express it through ethnicity

They want to fly their flag from the Auckland harbour bridge on Waitangi day. Who the fuck do they think they are? Why do we need a separate set of rules for one ethnic group in this country?
Who's asking for seperate rules? I thought it was a bunch of people wanting a flag to be flown that they identify with. This simply seems to be asking for something that others can take for granted. How do you think it feels to have to ask for something as harmless as that when there is something called the TREATY OF WAITANGI that the day is meant to celebrate. Nobody has asked for the our New Zealand flag not to be flown.
Oh that's right when the Maori came here they waged a war against the Mori Ori and virtually wiped them out. Ate them didn't they?
No. This is BULLSHIT. Read M Kings Penguin History of NZ. But that's different to the European 'invasion' because the European didn't commit genocide (arguable point - maybe they tried?)
The Penguin History also has much to say about the way this country was settled. Nobody sensible wants to turn back the clock or punish anyone living today, for the crimes of the past. It's what people did to each other. But sometimes it's hard to move on when historic issues aren't named and dealt with.
The point is that we have in NZ a country that is made up of a number of different peoples from different cultures the world over. The country (infrastructure, society, culture) was built from the blood, sweat, & tears of these people. We have a very proud history that encompassess a wide range of cultures and yet we give great respect to the Maori culture - the Haka, Maori place names, and funding for Maori cultural/education programmes. It's not about bagging Maori people they have a right to their cultural history, but so does everyone else in this country.
I agree with so much of this, but I'm not sure that Maori do get great respect. I happen to have the mixed fortune of being a white Maori. This means that as I go about my life, mostly under-cover, I get to hear what many people "think" about Maori. Much of it doesn't seem respectful. Much of it seems ill-informed and based on fear and lazy thinking. Maori are different to other ethnic groups, but we probably have more in common with each other than differences, but the differences define us. I will feel respected when my kids don't have to spell their names for people writing them down. I will feel respected when most New Zealanders will let me have a powhiri if I want to. Not make me justify it.

One set of rules for one country.

I like this idea. Can they be written in Maori?

Hmmmm....Racial Segragation by Legislation. There's a word for that -
APATHIED!!!

Lazy thinking might have at least the appearance of credibility if you bothered checking your spelling. Take a breath. Nobody wants apartheid.Edit: Fuck how is that word spelt?

I am quite happy to share this beautiful, bountiful country with whoever wants to live here in peace. Does this mean that I can be Maori, or is that a breach of the peace?

[QUOTE=Colapop;919930]'Most' Maori do not have the right to call themselves Maori.
I sincerely hope that you are not telling me that I don't have the right to call myself Maori? I am Maori because I, and three siblings, were raised by my Maori mother. I am Pakeha because of my fathers genes and because in order to succeed in New Zealand you have to be able to do things that Pakeha value and fit in with the modern world. I get that. They have no more Maori blood in them than I do in me.You kinda like being a Viking though don't you? I am of European decent but I am a New Zealander. I do not claim to have the rights of the EU because my ancestors came from there.Did anyone from the EU tell you that you could have the rights of the EU and be a New Zealander? Then change the rules? What we are talking about here is devisive separatist behaviour - pretty much regardles of race. I just don't get this. Men and women are different but can still be together.
The dictionary, in fact quite a few of them, describes sovereignty as;
"Supreme and independent power or authority in government as possessed or claimed by a state or community."Nobody would be stupid enough to ask for true sovereignty now, but it was promised. Asking to fly a flag is not asking for sovereignty.

And before you complain and profess that you have said you are a "Pakeha" (The literal translation is White flea or parasite Myth) you also say that your 'whanau' or family are Maori. Which is it? It isn't mutually exclusive. We are all a mix of ethnicities.Do you choose sides depending on the way the wind is blowing? Sometimes. I'm not stupid all the time. It certainly seems to be the manner of those that "protest in the name of Maoridom". Not at a personal attack but how diluted does a person's heritage have to be before they are considered not to be Maori? It isn't all about blood. It's about culture. The best way to find out "what" you are is to go somewhere where you are in the minority.

There is nothing wrong with celebrating Maori culture, language, arts and history. I fully support celebrating it, in fact. But why do we need the Maori All Blacks or the Maori electoral roll? Isn't the fact that many Maori want them enough?Why don't we fully integrate the cultures of this land and have the Chinese All Blacks, the Dutch electoral roll, and put up place names in Somali, Hindi, Spanish....I wonder whose culture should make up the bulk of this blend? This is a strawman argument?

I now have a headache. Thankyou for the oportunity to express this in an environment that is safe. I sincerely hope that I haven't misjudged this.

[Colapop]

Not at all sir. While I would dispute at least half of your rebuttal - I won't right now coz I'm tired and going to bed. I'll try and get back to this later...

[xwhatsit]

Never met a maori. Met a few New Zealanders of maori descent. No maoris though. Met a chinaman the other day. But he was a New Zealander too.

Stick your racsist ideas up your arse - that goes for those of european descent, but it also goes for those of maori descent who want to divide our country on rascist grounds.
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I DON'T CARE WHO YOUR GRANDAD WAS OK !
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`You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to davereid again'

[Ixion]

This whole thing with the flag. The flag they (The "Confederation of Chiefs of the United Tribes of Aotearoa") are talking about is NOT the "Maori flag" It is not a flag that is representative of Maoris.

It is a flag that is representative only of a bunch of diversive opportunists , who have no connection with the 1835 (Pre Treaty) Confederation of Chiefs , a short lived grouping of a limited number of Northern Maori tribes. The original Confederation of Chiefs certainly did NOT include or represent all , or a majority, or even a substantial minority of the Maori of the time. The "Confedertion" broke up in internicine warfare within a few years , and vanished from history until the present group, without any colour of right , usurped the name and flag.

If the present Confederation, or their flag, had any mandate or right to speak for all Maori, or even a majority, then there might be a case for it being flown. They have no such mandate, no right to claim to represent, or speak for or on behalf of Maori, and their claim to have their flag flown alongside the national flag is simply self aggrandisement on their part.

Their is no more reason why that flag should be flown on Waitangi day than why the Kiwibiker flag should be flown. And the "Confederation of Chiefs" have no more mandate to claim to represent Maori than Kiwibiker does .

[bikemike]

As well as part Scotch, part English, part Spanish.

In Scotland round the back of Loch Ness (I think it was Ness) is a museum that takes you thru a timeline of the land from pists, celts etc to modern day. The history is told in an audiovisual way as you wear earphones. It is the uncut story of colonisation - we could do with such a real gritty exhibit here, never mind old sterile Te Papa

Ahem, 'Scotch' is for Whiskey and Eggs. 'Scots' is for folks, and those were Picts not Pists. (Sounds about right for a night on the Buckie though!)

As an incomer of European descent, when asked to note my ethnicity I feel uncomfortable ticking NZ European / Pakeha. I'm European, specifically English. To me, Pakeha seems to say 'not Maori'. As some have alluded to, there is a difference of opinion in the debate that revolves around racial absolutes and ethnic ancenstry. If I were bothered to investigate, perhaps I have Celtic, Viking, Persian or other lines, who knows. Perhaps the fact that I don't much care is that I do retain my sense of belonging, and humanity -- without the need to identify with any particular culture or race. Certainly, half my life spent in Scotland I've experience plenty of prejudice against the English, some directed at me (I was not around 700 years ago, it wasn't me, I won't do it again!) A common complaint against Scottish nationalism is that it is too dependent on being 'not English' and I wonder how that relates to us here? On the one hand, identifying as Pakeha comes across to me to mean not Maori which would suggest distaste or fear, and on the other hand, for many who identify as Maori when that is only part of their ancestry, even a small part, that seems to say not-Pakeha...

Be far better if we all defined ourselves as who we are now, our friends and family, our life.
For me there is no value in personally identifying with any race or ethnicity. I might be well minded to know some history in any case to appreciate what went before, to understand how things became what they are and so on. We should be encouraged to learn those lessons and help improve the lot of everyone equally.

I personally had nothing to do with anything that happened before I was born. It's bloody obvious but too often forgotten.

[35tickets]

I have a major problem with the likes of Ken Mair who is more 'Pakeha' than me, Tama Iti and all the other shit stirrers who make their living by being professional protesters - they're as bad as John F*cking Minto. I have more 'mana' in my little finger than those c*nts have in their entire being. The police, as I understand it, do arrest those individuals that break the law. They may not do it immediately, such as during a protest where they are greatly outnumbered (wouldn't that be foolish) but they do arrest those people who are willing to break the laws of this land. Whether you agree with then or not. There is a prcess for changing these laws - it's called an election..

Couldn't agree more Colapop. This country is going down the toilet with all the shit the maori activists are stirring up. Imagine the uproar in the country if a white supremesist group started getting their face on the 6 oclock news. Ken mair and his buddy Mike Smith should fuck off with their bullshit ideas and I'm fucking darker than they are!

And i thought i had a problem with my swearing. Good to see another individual with a good gutter mouth lol!!!

[Clivoris]

Not at all sir. While I would dispute at least half of your rebuttal - I won't right now coz I'm tired and going to bed. I'll try and get back to this later...

Sweet Col, thanks for that. This stuff pushes emotional buttons for a lot of us New Zealanders, but it has to be talked about. That's the positive of people like Don Brash expressing his opinion at Orewa, or Maori activists wanting a flag. I know that they mostly don't mean to be offensive. I hope this thread doesn't turn into a slagging match for others.

[Finn]

Never met a maori. Met a few New Zealanders of maori descent. No maoris though.

I think they'll all in prison.

[MisterD]

Ahem, 'Scotch' is for Whiskey

Erm, 'Scotch' is for Whisky....the 'e' exists for the Irish and Bourbon relatives.

Anyway, back to the politics.

A bit of a tangent this, but from the whole fuss over Don Brash's "blood quantum" comments, you are apparently Maori if that is how you define yourself (In spite of the fact if Maori rights and benefits are enshrined in law you clearly need a legal definition of "Maori").

So, on that basis, fcuk off with this "Pakeha" word. I am not Pakeha, you do not define me.